PGR3 eyes on

[Tap In]

http://www.xboxyde.com/news_1859_en.html

- The matching system will be very accurate, allowing good players to play with good players, and bad drivers like me to actually have a chance to have some fun.

woohoo!

online racing where I may now have a chance to win!

Let me state first that this was a rather old build, running on the oldest version of the black beta kits. The game was very obviously in development, with lots of graphical bugs and a very low frame rate, something like 10 or 15 FPS.
But it already looked so incredible! This was running on the same Tokyo track as shown in the latest trailer, and except for the numerous visual bugs and the very low resolution textures of this debug build, it looked exactly the same. Only this time it was playable!

sounds like it is still early...better polish this baby up quickly

with full auto gone and the new matchmaking LIVE system, this is now solidly in my launch lineup with PDZ and COD2 and maybe Madden.

 

[bankrupt]

also a new update on the bizarre web site with a pic showing off enviroment reflextions


http://www.bizarreonline.net/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=47

 

[mckmas8808]

I'll post it here

http://www.jeux-france.com/Webmasters/Images/40691320050818_180356_0_big.jpg

 

[PC-Engine]

It's against forum rules to post gigantic pictures...

 

[Acert93]

It's against forum rules to post gigantic pictures...

The new board software handles it well though. It only stretches the user's post cell and not the entire page. And come on, that pic is worth of a 56k download

First Realtime Next Gen Game(TM)

I am not happy with the HDD issue (or how all the software is coming), but with my West Coast friend nagging me about Xbox Live w/ PGR3... my... my... my precious!

Quick, I need some GT5 footage!

If 1st gen 360 games are going to look like PGR3 and GOW I think it will do well this gen once more devs get a handle on next gen (and most important start a project, from scratch, on final HW!)

 

[mckmas8808]

If 1st gen 360 games are going to look like PGR3 and GOW I think it will do well this gen once more devs get a handle on next gen (and most important start a project, from scratch, on final HW!)

I wish more people thought like you Acert93. I totally agree. Too many people saying that next-gen won't deliver miracles.

 

[Acert93]

I wish more people thought like you Acert93. I totally agree. Too many people saying that next-gen won't deliver miracles.

Well, I would not say miracles

GOW and PGR3 are what you would expect from

1. Software developed on closed box systems with G70/R520 class GPUs
2. Baseline next gen games (Based on an evolution of the best on the PC/Xbox games)

The problem is so far we have seen a lot of

1. Xbox/PC conversions with older game engines not designed for next gen systems
2. Rushed for launch
3. Not built on final hardware (sub-class GPUs, different CPUs/bandwidth limitations)
4. No tailored/familiar with the unique console abilities
5. 360 games were initially designed with 256MB of memory in mind

I see PGR3 and GOW as the baseline for "next gen quality". I fully expect the best games this gen to go a complete step beyond these due to overcoming the above issues and improved tools and a better handle on the hardware.

Basically a lot of games are not living up to next gen quality IMO. But guess what? That is ALWAYS the case at launch.

As for miracles, I think they are on par for what we would expect. Where I think games should take the next big step is interactivity. GOW and PGR3 are pretty static from what we have seen. Nice geometry, textures, and shaders. The next step is breaking stuff, living worlds, and interactivity and stuff all over.

Basically crossing the visuals of PGR3/GOW with the interactivity/mass stuff in Kameo/The Outfit.

And of course none of this a good game make... gameplay, story, controls, animation, etc... are all really important too. And next gen engines don't make great games by themselves.

And as always there is the "human" factor, or limiting factor. Look at PDZ. They claim it is a new engine + a TON of geometry. But guess what? The art stinks compared to a GOW!! Having a lot of power is not enough. Having a vision and quality art teams is important. You can have two games with

+ lots of geometry
+ lots of shaders
+ hi rez textures
+ 5.1 sound
+ etc

And have one game look great and the other look like poo. It is the difference between giving a child a paintbrush and an artist a paintbrush. Same tools, same paints, same easle, same canvas, same amount of time... TOTALLY different results.

So there is a fine line between technical limitations and artistic ones. PDZ and GOW may push the 360's hardware the same, but one certainly makes better use of it.

In that respect we wont see miracles. GOW and PGRS are not doing anything I would call a miracle from a HW perspective... the devs just are using the HW better. Limitations are limitations. Certain things in lighting, textures/texture correction, shadowing, etc... are not possible on the hardware.

But realtime engines have ALWAYS been about cheating Why make a dynamically lit/shadowed smoke cloud with 500M particles all calcuated with fluid dynamics when you can get basically the same effect (close enough for the casual gamer) at 10% of the performance hit?

So in that regards I don't expect miracles. But I do expect savvy devs to really show us how far they can trick our eyes, and in some ways, the "limitations" of the HW.

 

[mckmas8808]

So in that regards I don't expect miracles. But I do expect savvy devs to really show us how far they can trick our eyes, and in some ways, the "limitations" of the HW.

So I would ask you dear sir, "what do you consider a miracle?" Can you explain what a miracle like game would look or play like? Within reason of course.

 

[slider]

That pic is amazing. But, am I missing something? Don't want to go off on a tangent, but why is that reflection on the middle of the bonnet so jaggedy? Esp when the rest is as smooth as a baby's bottom (that is a legit saying, right?)

 

[Farid]

That pic is amazing. But, am I missing something? Don't want to go off on a tangent, but why is that reflection on the middle of the bonnet so jaggedy?

That's because they're using textures for the reflection effect (Cube-Mapping).
And just like every bitmap, once scretched out it shows bigger pixels (or textels in this case).

Note that, in game, you'll never be this close of the car (Except in a few replay modes, at best), therefore this particular detail won't degrade the overall IQ of the game at all.

 

[slider]

Oh, I see. I think!

Granted that part of the bonnet is the "largest" area but compared to the.... damn, dont know the exact car phrase.... but compared to the other bits (ie above the wheel arch on the left) the jaggies are more pronounced. Thats why I noticed the jaggie bit in the first place.

To be honest, in a fast moving game I'd think I'd rarely notice something like that anyway.

 

[Jawed]

I think the real reason for the jaggedy reflections might be that the objects generating them are constructed as transparent textures. As far as I can tell there are two types of objects causing these kinds of reflections:

1. that railing above the white girders
2. the vertical wires that run betweeen the bridge and the suspension cable

Then again, maybe all the reflections have this problem, but it just depends on how close the reflection is to the camera...

It's also worth noting the un-HDR reflection of the sky on the rear window. That reflection should be blown out.

Also, I'm still waiting to see the car's reflect in each others' bodywork.

Oh, and finally, while the world appears with motion blur - the reflections in the cars don't have motion blur.

Jawed

 

[Acert93]

So I would ask you dear sir, "what do you consider a miracle?" Can you explain what a miracle like game would look or play like? Within reason of course.

Well, I think this gen is powerful enough to FAKE a lot of stuff.

e.g. You can take a high quality Orge model like from LotR and normal map it, reduce the poly count, reduce the texture quality a little, make little flaps on the model to make it appear to be solid and 3D when in fact only bits of the armor move, and so forth. Slap on some lighting and shadowing (whatever method works nice) and you get an end result that is very nice!

But the render quality is never as good. Nor the lighting, shadowing, or texture detail. It wont animate as fluidly or be as interactive (which is cheating because VFX spend a lot of time tweaking by hand) and so forth.

To put it another way: I believe a game that looks like MotorStorm's render target is possible. You can get mud, cars, and nice terrain.

But when we get down to the nuts and bolts and fine details--the rendering/texturing quality (perfectly high rez, no pixelation OR shimmering), lighting, shadowing, fluid dynamics with spot on rendering, cars falling apart,etcc--to the same QUALITY, that is what I would call a "miracle".

You can fake a LOT of stuff, but faked stuff brakes in different environments. The goal of a game maker is to develop a game engine/experience so it doesn't break.

e.g. Doom 3's lighting/shadowing was great for its game. Of course it would not have worked quite as well for HL2 at comparable HW. And vice versa: HL2's engine would have really underwhelmed in D3.

On that note, I would have to say that D3 is one of the few games that made me feel it had low end CGI rendering. Something about the game has a very CLEAN look to it. FarCry and HL2 are beautiful games but neither has the clean rendering in Doom3 (even without AA! AA on makes it even better).

So in effect I am not sure I have seen anything not possible on a console... I think LotR CGI could be done on it... as long as we know it will be faked in a LOT of ways. The end result will be similar, but when you look closely it becomes clear.

Jawed gives GREAT examples BTW!!!

If the car was CGI it would have probably used GI and Raytracing so the reflections would be PERFECT.

But since Cubemaps--a hack to fake real reflections--were used it is not perfect. VERY nice, but not the same.

Maybe that explains what I am saying the best. You can do a very good fake while not being the same. And at some point a game will require the "fake" stuff to be done to be done at the higher quality (like Carmak is mentioning about his next engine) and if that cannot be done technically but somehow it is done without faking that is a miracle

But Realtime 3D chips and engines do a reall good job of faking stuff. Just not CGI quality. Close, 90% maybe, but that last 10% takes the LONGEST time.

 

[mckmas8808]

Good points Acert93, but to me faking it and getting 99% close is great enough. To me a miracle is when people say, "Thats not possible" and then it happens.

 

[pegisys]

Good points Acert93, but to me faking it and getting 99% close is great enough. To me a miracle is when people say, "Thats not possible" and then it happens.

I think thats because you can't spot the fake, which is probably a good thing, this reminds me of when a friend brings a new game over and start talking about how great the graffics are, and I tell them it's ok and start pointing things out that could of been better and were they used a cheap hack, and they say it still looks real, I think the people that complian really just want games to be full cg quality with out any fakes, unfortuantly that won't happen for a coulpe genarations, if not more

 

[jvd]

the game looks great no doubt about it . I want to know how it plays though .

Wonder when reviews will hit us . october ?

 

[Acert93]

the game looks great no doubt about it . I want to know how it plays though .

On games like this I have used the rule of sequals--how was the previous version?

PGR2 played well (arcadish of course) and had some neat online features (like cat and mouse).

This is why games like GOW (Epic... some hit and misses on the console and PC and the 3rd person / shooting over the shoulder deal does not give much confidence) or the unnamed game from the unspoken trailer (collective 72% rating from gamerankings.com -- OUCH!!) are definate, "Wait and see" type games.

There is always more to a game than looks and good devs tend to turn out good games. I have also learned do not expect a bad dev to become a great dev overnight. Sometimes it takes good devs a while to get noticed (I remember DMA on the N64 dream team as an example... never really found the right game to show their skillz until the PS2!) but rarely does a stinker dev make a great game. id is another example. People have 15 years of their games to look at... so no one should be surprised when D4 looks great and has monster closets around every corner! It is just what they do.

In the case of PGR3 I think it is safe to say they will at least put out a B+ effort.

Here is another reason to have confidence: PGR2 was released in November 2003.

24 months.

And most likely Bizzare knew right then their next title would be for the 360. They probably were already working on the engine at least by then, if not sooner. And as a dev with a solid game engine already in place for gameplay (always help to have good code around) they could take, revise, and adjust the good stuff to get a basic build up and work on other elements.

The companies I worry more about are the ones who have had 12-18 months. The 4 months on the Beta kits is killer... really, a LOT of stuff looks rushed right now.

Wonder when reviews will hit us . october ?

Probably November. Game will go to press in early October for early November launch. Mags have a 2-4 week lead time. So expect them to get finished, or near finished, builds right before their deadlines.

But thinking back to past launches a LOT of times only 2 or 3 games get reviewed and you have to wait an issue or two to get them all reviewed.

 

[jvd]

I remember for most systems its the month before and all the mags do the huge covers with the huge story on everything in it .



I guess it depends . If its early november it will most likely be in the nov (come out in oct) mags and if its late nov it will be in the dec mags (come out in nov

 

[jvd]

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