pax said:
Legion you obviously dont have a good grasp of the north's military capabilities. Your mentionning mao and stalin youd have rather seen wars against them as well? NK isnt Iraq.
And i suppose you do? What by chance has indicated to you i don't have this grasp? Please inform me.
If a military at the time had had the power to take out stalin such would definately have been better for Russia then allowing him to live. End of Story. If we had attacked Russia right after WWII we probably could have beaten him. However no one would have been willing to deal with the loss of so many more lives. No one likely imagined the kind of monster Stalin was.
Mao was also a power hungry lunatic who had no hangups over killing/having people killed. Mao may arguably be far more wicked them Stalin.
My point which, you clearly missed, was that peaceful negotiations didn't/couldn't stop them from killing millions under his regime. They were power mad, violent, paranoid and void of any sense of the value of human life.
Clinton didnt honor his agreement and helped the north let 2 million die in the 90's.
No, i wouldn't say that. I would say that Kim opted to allow these people to die. He had millions and he choose to invest in his nuclear programs. Bill Clinton was under no binding contract to do this.
Why is it that we cant igknowledge the fact that the economnic instability of NK and Kim may be the cause of this problem? NK received plenty of money, food, oil etc from US government. Instead of investing that money in his people Kim did what dictators usually do: invest the money in something that will make the dictator more money. In this case it was nuclear arms.
This alongside the fact that NK has ties to many nations in the ME along with china makes me suspect that Kim really wants the ability to develope weapons grade fuel for illegal transaction sake. I honestly believe the ME and China have vested interests in turning NK into a weapons proxy.
I would say one of Clinton's major blunders were his ineptitude and appoiting Carter to discuss with Kim directives of peace. Clearly this failed as NK acquired parts for nuclear weaponry from Pakistan in 98-99 who had received these weapons from Beijing instead of using this money to invest in feeding their populace.
Lets not forget what preempted all of this:
Kim had pulled out of the NPT and was preventing UN/US inspectors from investigating his nuclear facility and programs. This is what caused Clinton to try and negotiate with Kim. With the money provided him he helped to develope his nuclear program and not his people.
We can try helping them with some modest food shipments and then economic investment and see how that opens up their society.
Looks like we tried that in the 90s which failed. Kim isn't interested in aiding his people. He interested in developing his nuclear programs. Last time i check there have been receiving US/UN food aid since the 90s.
Pax exactly what would be this supposed economic investment? Kim has his economic investments in advancing a nuclear program.
As was demonstrated under Clinton, Kim is a liar. There is no reason to believe he won't continue funding a nuclear program even with continuing aid and economic investments (what would people invest in NK
). That is afterall what Bill Clinton was doing there, helping to set such things up. Kim simply chose to use what he received in a different manner then the the reason that was posed to him suggested.
You cant bunch all dictators and regimes in the same bag as unable to be opened up by other than military means.
I believe the military means and poor leader ship of the government by the dictator are valid reasons to link them together Pax. Though the method of dealing with them may be different a tyrant is still a tyrant.
This isnt about appeasing a Hitler who was invading other countries.
No its appeasing a man who wants a nuclear program to launch missles over japan.
Would you call this a sound action from a reasonable person?
This regime isnt invading anyone,
Not
this particular NK regime at this particular moment. However his interest are clear. He wants to develope nuclear weapons at the cost of his own people's lives. What is a better reason to get rid of this man? Who cares who is dying. Kim is directly responsible for their deaths. He needs to go.
is starving and desperate for help. They waited 10 years for Clinton to honor his deal... That doesnt sound like an undealable situation to me.
Honor his deal to what? he promised many things. SOme of which he has acted apon. Most if not all he hadn't the authority to make. He had given NK food donations and monetary donations in access of millions of dollars as well as oil. Kim didn't use the money on his people. Rather he used it to purchase nuclear weapons material from Pakistan in 98/99. I am so those parts didn't cost him a buck fifty. I am sure he could have payed to feed his people on that money.
Just because in your mind the only effective means is to goto war while ignoring the consequences of such doesnt mean there are none. Unless you can offer any other ideas yourself?
I can simply turn this statement on you by merely rewording it.
Just because in your mind peaceful negotiations are the only way to avoid war while....
It is clear that with Clinton peaceful negotiations failed mainly because of kim. He isn't willing to stop doing what he is doing which is investing millions into nuclear weapons technologies while sacrificing his own people.
If he really has all the nukes some people claim he has he surely payed more than 100,000,000 easy on the parts. Money like that could have been used to feed his people. obviously he doesn't care.
