Nokia's Present & Future

[orangpelupa]

ive been reading various reviews.
actually, skipping to the camera section and sticking eye balls to them...

lumia 1020 have problem with noise (even on plain blue sky) and it oversharp the image edges. Its just need a software tweak?

 

[french toast]

ive been reading various reviews.
actually, skipping to the camera section and sticking eye balls to them...

lumia 1020 have problem with noise (even on plain blue sky) and it oversharp the image edges. Its just need a software tweak?

Yea I would think so, still its not the same sensor as on the 808pureview...its actually smaller...the pixels are 1.1 micron vs something like 1.4 in the 808.
Ill find an article soon when ive got time.

 

[liolio]

It is an issue with MSFT (thus impacting Nokia) they do not know where to "stand", at the same time they want to provide a good service when it comes to supporting existing devices (even though their track record with winphone 7 might let some people with a bitter taste in the mouth) like Apple does, so they don't want (or can't) support too many different SoC.
At the time they want other vendors to support their platform, it looks like a tough place to be for MSFT and worse for NOkia.

Sort of makes me think of that quote from Tocqueville:

Si quelqu'un me montrait entre l'independance complete et l'asservissement entier de la pensee une position intermediaire ou je puisse esperer me tenir, je m'y etablirais peut-etre ; mais qui decouvrira cette position intermediaire?

Which translate into (gross English to follow):
If somebody were to show me, between complete independence and the entire enslavement of thinking an intermediary position (middle ground) where I could hope to stand, may be I would settle there, but who is going to find that middle ground?

Imo it seems to me that Elop is not that guy...

 

[Mintmaster]

But wouldn't the lack of support from MS be an issue? MS seems to heavily control various parts of WP hardware. And as far as I know it's Qualcomm only and not even quad core yet.

Why people making all these assumptions? If a need arises, drivers will be provided. Yes, quadcore is supported. But WP is snappy even with dual core and probably uses less power, and Nokia probably preferred that and the cost savings. Almost everyone making mid or high end Android phones is using Qualcomm for various reasons, so why assume MS's intransigence is the reason for choosing Qualcomm with WP8?

And before someone mentions 1080p, I don't see why MS would hold back if Nokia wanted it. The AMOLED display is getting good reviews for its contrast, but they used PenTile either because they have no choice or for cost reasons, so 1080p is out of the question unless they go LCD.

 

[Laurent06]

-- REMOVED -- It's not worth the pain answering.

 

[Mintmaster]

lumia 1020 have problem with noise (even on plain blue sky) and it oversharp the image edges. Its just need a software tweak?

Remember that there's a tradeoff between noise-reduction and detail. This page shows it pretty well:
http://connect.dpreview.com/post/1305711237/lumia-1020?page=4 (you can move the box around)
The 1020 is grainy but detailed. The iPhone and 920 use aggressive noise reduction, but it kills detail.

I believe you that solid areas come out better on other cameras that use more noise reduction (e.g. look at the color swatches in the link above), but features come out much better with Nokia's more hands-off approach. I think most people (especially photographers) prefer tightly packed grain over in-camera processing to get rid of it.

At some point we may see the 1020 software have an option to do a little more to get rid of grain.

EDIT: Here's an example from dpreview's bright test scene (5MP mode):

More grain in the solid areas, but vastly more detail elsewhere. I see what you're saying about oversharpening some areas, but I also see areas where its less than other cameras.

 

[orangpelupa]

i mean, Lumia 1020 compared to Pureview 808.
Nokia claims that despite have smaller sensor, Lumia 1020 still good because it use BSI and have faster lens.

with its grainy image, 1020 also failed retaining details where 808 do fine.

 

[Mintmaster]

Oh, you found a site with 1020 vs 808 comparisons?

 

[Laurent06]

A 10 second search with Google brings this: http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/flow/item/17994_The_first_Nokia_808_vs_Lumia_1.php

Even bearing in mind that the 808 was shooting through the protective sales plastic over the 1020's camera glass, the level of artefacts is much less. The artefacts in the 5MP image from the Lumia 1020 indicate that there's no hardware-based PureView oversampling as in the Nokia 808. What's happening is that the Lumia 1020 'only' shoots the one 34MP/38MP image and then a 5MP version is created later in software (Nokia has used the word 'upscaling' and the term 'adaptive oversampling', though of course the exact algorithms are proprietary).
...
[update] Nokia is claiming that the noise in the top crop is due to its algorithms optimising for 'high detail' in low ISO/good light conditions (as here) and for 'low noise' in high ISO/low light conditions. Comments? More controlled tests definitely needed here - same subject, same angle, same conditions, etc.

 

[Mintmaster]

Okay, thanks. I'm waiting for dpreview's full test, as they're awesome about controlled tests and comparisons. When I googled, I started looking at this from ZDNet:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/palmsolo/sets/72157634764820635/
I can definitely see more detail in the 1020 shots, so there is indeed an algorithm difference here.

Where you really see a difference between noise reduction algorithms is in areas of low contrast. See the green fuzzball in the image I posted above? aggressive noise reduction thinks the subtle differences in green from pixel to pixel is due to noise, and blends it together, while the natural look keeps those details.

The ZDNet images also show this:
1020 image
808 image
If you look at the concrete pillars near the bottom or the trees on the right, the 808 is missing out on a lot of subtle detail. Oh, and the HTC One looks quite bad in comparison. Gobs of noise reduction in low contrast areas.

 

[orangpelupa]

the flickr album cropped
http://gamexeon.com/kamera-lumia-1020-kalahkan-iphone-5-nokia-808-tetap-juara/2/

Spoiler

808 retain much more detail and less noisy in max resolution.
on 5MP mode, the result the same. 808 less noisy and retain better detail.

 

[tuna]

Because they've already done so for the Win8 kernel on ARM, and they're trying to get WP design wins for T4i.

So sometime in the future (if they get enough customers) they might provide a provide a driver stack for WP8?

 

[Jubei]

Marketshare is what matters, because you're supposed to sell more in a growing market.

Sony is selling more Xperias now than in 2011 so i dont really see your point.

You mean the 1% YoY increase in a market that grew a lot faster than that?

What are you talking about?

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/07/idc-smartphones-q2-2013.jpg

Going from 5,8 million to 12,1 million is quite an improvement. If Nokia did it ,we would have to sit here and read your posts about how they are on their way to conquering the world

No, it also contributes to Sony having a bigger marketshare than Nokia, which is the fact you were emphasizing from the beginning. If you looked at Sony outside of Japan and Nokia outside of Finland, you'd probably have Nokia on top already, and Sony's rise would be a lot more muted.

Yeah lets look at that shall we?

http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/r/sto...0-13-37-620x185.png?hash=MGMyAmAxZG&upscale=1

 

[tuna]

Why people making all these assumptions? If a need arises, drivers will be provided.

Yes, if Nokia/MS will pay for them.

 

[Mintmaster]

So sometime in the future (if they get enough customers) they might provide a provide a driver stack for WP8?

Yes, if Nokia/MS will pay for them.

You are fucking unbelievable. You know Tegra 3 already supports Windows on ARM from Surface RT (and the same is true for Tegra 4, obviously). I told you Win 8, Win RT, and WP8 share the same kernel (and thus share the same driver model, graphics API, network API, etc). I gave you a link showing NVidia intent to get on Window Phone products.

Yet you still refuse to believe that NVidia has written WP8 drivers? So in a nutshell, this is your conclusion of how they operate:

NVidia: "Hey, we'd like to sell you our T4i chip for a Windows Phone product."
OEM: "Great, do you have WP8 running on a testbed or reference platform so we can see how well your chip runs?"
NVidia: "No, we want you to pay us to do that first."
OEM: <laughs> "I see. And we should choose T4i over Snapdragon why, exactly?"
Nvidia: "..."

 

[Mintmaster]

808 retain much more detail and less noisy in max resolution.
on 5MP mode, the result the same. 808 less noisy and retain better detail.

I didn't look at the 34/38MPix shots, but your crop shows that the 808 is a tad better.

However, I disagree that the 808 has the same detail at 5MPix. The mesh near the sign is blurrier on the 808, as are the concrete pillars below at the middle-bottom of the crops. I don't know if you made the images, but if you did, check the concrete pillars just below where these in the original. The brown thing (dog?) near "pier 57" has far more details in the 1020 image. You can clearly see a separate eye and eyebrow in the fisherman statue with the 1020, but they blur together in the 808 picture.

(I was wrong about the trees, though, as the 808 looks better there :smile: Must've mixed up my tabs.)

It appears to me that the 808 has more noise reduction in its downscaling algorithm.

 

[Mintmaster]

Sony is selling more Xperias now than in 2011 so i dont really see your point.

Nokia has grown Lumias shipments even faster. That's my point.

What are you talking about?

http://www.blogcdn.com/www.engadget.com/media/2013/07/idc-smartphones-q2-2013.jpg

Going from 5,8 million to 12,1 million

That's just released data I didn't have, but I do admit to making a mistake, as I was looking at total sales:
http://www.gsmarena.com/lg_posts_a_small_profit_ for_2012_phone_division_doing_okay-news-5442.php
That's where I got the 1% number.

Still, it should be noted that at the time Elop took over, LG had 4-5% of the smartphone market (can't find Gartner or IDC data on LG back then, but found a few sources 1 2). They've also seen their share of Android go down. Nokia would need it to go up from 0%.

You're right that it's a good improvement for LG, but they lost marketshare before getting it back now, and we also saw HTC go down. Neither of them give much credence to Nokia getting anywhere starting from scratch.

http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/r/sto...0-13-37-620x185.png?hash=MGMyAmAxZG&upscale=1

That makes no sense at given that Nokia sold 5M+ Lumias in Q1 and 7.4M in Q2. If they're not selling in Europe, North America, or Japan, then where?

 

[Mize]

There are only two things keeping me from getting a Lumia 1020 asap:

1. No user replaceable battery. This is super important for business travel as I usually swap out my battery between the work day and dinner.

2. No SD card. I keep a huge music library on my microSD for the long flights to Asia. With such a great camera, I'd need even more space.

So let's get that corrected Lumia 1025 out soon.

 

[tuna]

You are fucking unbelievable. You know Tegra 3 already supports Windows on ARM from Surface RT (and the same is true for Tegra 4, obviously). I told you Win 8, Win RT, and WP8 share the same kernel (and thus share the same driver model, graphics API, network API, etc).

Linus Thorvald's Linux is different from the Linux used by Android (wakelocks and a lots of other stuff). Therefor the drivers can not be applied to both. The same is probably true for WP8/W8. And the link you posted just says that WP8 and W8 share the same "driver model", but what does that exactly mean? Can you run WP8 on the Surface RT?

 

[tuna]

Y

NVidia: "Hey, we'd like to sell you our T4i chip for a Windows Phone product."
OEM: "Great, do you have WP8 running on a testbed or reference platform so we can see how well your chip runs?"

nVidia: Yes, please take a look at our Android reference platform. The performance should be the same.
OEM: But I want a WP8 reference platform!
nVidia: Sorry, we can't invest in that, the potential market is to small. But if you sign a contract we'll produce drivers.