Newsweek, with a little help, takes on Wii as 'GameCube 1.5'

[Arwin]

I don't know though how you can write this, and then follow it up with this below...

Isn't that the entire crux of the issue though? I think being in Europe maybe you guys don't quite understand the true phenomenon the Wii has become in the United States; it goes beyond price and marketing. I can't help but notice some of the regional correlations between a lot of the opinions in this thread.

You make it sound as if it is different in Europe, but that is nonsense. In fact, in the U.S. the 360 is holding its own against the Wii much better than in any of the other regions, where the Wii has become the best selling platform already.

I'm just pointing out that there are three factors:

1. features
2. price
3. marketing

Together, they produce value. Each contributes to the success of the product. Right now, the Wii has a rare situation where it has all three very right. Its features are special, but they are also available for a very accessible price, and Nintendo has been very successful in making people aware of their product. There's no mistaking that they have gone through significant and extraordinary methods to achieve this too, with their Alfa-mom projects and what not. Even the DS has helped towards the Wii marketing ...

It's like this - if the DS and the PSP were the same price, would you think that DS demand would drop off in a significant fashion? It is almost the identical analogue between the DS and the PSP, in terms of both gameplay variation being the primary differentiator for the DS, and the PSP being possessed of what otherwise is superior power, functionality, screen, etc... and truthfully I find it strange that with those that are contemptuous of the Wii, that the DS seems immune to their feelings on price/value. Are these not at the heart of it the same concept; simply one for travel and one for the home?

Yet for a considerable amount of time sales for the DS and the PSP went head-to-head in the West, despite the DS having the advantage of the GBA factor, which I think often very much underestimated, as well as being cheaper. I'll get back to this.

More importantly, the value difference between the DS and PSP is smaller, and got smaller again as time progressed. A stock PSP without an additionally purchased large memory card isn't that useful for multi-media purposes. The PSP may have a good screen, certainly tonnes better than the DS - but that was only until the DS Lite was released, which has two even better screens, and their combined resolution is comparable to the PSP. More importantly, one of those screens is a touch screen. The PSP only has the analog nub to counter the DS's pen.

Now, the handheld market has been dominated by GBA, and consequently, there is a precedent of people still enjoying relatively simple graphics and not expecting much from handheld gaming. This was a big advantage to the DS, which not only is compatible with the GBA so games can be plugged in directly and continue being used on a nicer screen to boot, but at the same time DS games look great to people used to the GBA.

In many respects, the position of the PSP in the handheld space is very similar to the position of the Wii in the console space. This probably sounds strange, but in terms of handhelds the PSP did things very different from its only competition, and the result was that it created its own market. I'm personally a good example of this, because if it wasn't for the PSP, I probably still wouldn't have owned a handheld to this day. I'm 100% sure that I'm not alone in that either.

The PSP expanded the handheld market, and I wouldn't be surprised if the PSP and DS both expanded the handheld market in equal measure. Just look at Japan alone, where the GBA reached 15 million, and the DS is currently at 20 million, with the PSP at 5 million, combining to 25 million, which totals 10 million over the GBA, not yet three years after both handhelds were released, and good prospects of at least 2 years more worth of decent sales.

In contrast, the difference between the Wii-mote and the sixaxis controller is considerably smaller. A lot of the games on the Wii could be done almost exactly the same on the PS3. Also, the PS3 already through the PS2 has a vast array of Guitar Hero, DDR, SingStar, EyeToy and Time Crisis type games that have brought casual gaming to consoles much earlier, as well as backward compatibility with the PS2, a vast collective memory of good experiences and favorite franchises from its 120.000.000 sized installbase in the previous generation, and so on.

But because the Wii was easier to develop for, and its only unique feature was the motion control, all development and marketing efforts focus on the wii-mote, causing it to mature early, and with the low price, and relatively quick and cheap development cycle, it got all these features into customers hands early too.

I agree with you that we can learn from the handheld generation, but you have to be both careful and precise. There are many interesting paralels - think of the PSP's library of PS2 games, according to some a mixed blessing, but without it it's library would have been much, much smaller and it has definitely contributed to its success. Microsoft is very clearly and has been since Xbox1 trying to benefit from PC development in that respect, also through shared development tools that are very similar.

But there are so many interesting paralels, and not just the one of having a unique control method. If the PS3 had been $250, then would the Wii even had had the time and chance to pick up a buzz from the street, before everyone started to massively replace their PS2s with PS3s, which they could have done almost painlessly because everything is so compatible, with nicer saves management to boot, some good early games, integrated bluray, webbrowser, upscaling and what not. And with the market expected to grow so quickly, I think we would have seen much more attention from developers much earlier, also on the PSN games side of things.

The impact of all that is much more significant. So I'm pointing out how important price is for the Wii, not because price alone matters, but because of the effect of price in the myriad of other factors is very significant.

 

[Kfyh]

I just read the article and thought it was interesting. The article did have a slightly negative tone toward the Wii, but since it's a tech article about a technologically bland product, I think the articles tone is about right. I would've liked to seen more written about the motion sensors and the light sensor stuff. If you're going to talk about the technology of the Wii, then the controllers are the most important piece of technology on the product.

Personally I feel the marketing for the Wii was better than the product. The controller has never felt right to me, the cursor in the menus and in games (I only have Wii Sports and Scarface, I've played RedSteel and Wii Play as well) never feels like it's where I'm pointing. There not much accuracy in Wii Sports and the camera gets all confused a lot in Scarface. Furthermore, I can't setup the sensor bar to work with my projector since the screen is on the opposite side of the room. I wish i knew more on how the controller works, so I could evaluate whether games will improve in the future. Right now I've no intention on investing in any games for the Wii.

On a separate note, the best motion control implementation I've played is the Heavenly Sword's aftertouch feature. I've started to do some real magic bullet stuff with the arrows now.

 

[_xxx_]

There is nothing too complex about X360 it's a nice product and PS3 is also a great product, it just needs a bit more time to reach more acceptable price level, which it will.

So you really think PS3 is NOT too much stuff for a non-geek customer? And how about XB live? Most "common" people still aren't even online, let alone ready to deal with Live or such.

You are just parroting Nintendo's marketing speeches.

Last time I checked there was no money from Nintendo on my account.

And no, it's not me saying this but the sales numbers.

 

[Carl B]

You make it sound as if it is different in Europe, but that is nonsense. In fact, in the U.S. the 360 is holding its own against the Wii much better than in any of the other regions, where the Wii has become the best selling platform already.

That logic doesn't work though, because it's premised on the strength of the 360 in the US. The Wii sells out - it sells out! - in the US week after week. The 360 does not, but sells a lot more than in Europe. In Europe neither the 360 or the Wii are in a sold-out condition, so I would say your point here reflects more the poor relative porformance of the 360 in Europe more than any other one thing.

I'm just pointing out that there are three factors:

1. features
2. price
3. marketing

Together, they produce value. Each contributes to the success of the product. Right now, the Wii has a rare situation where it has all three very right. Its features are special, but they are also available for a very accessible price, and Nintendo has been very successful in making people aware of their product. There's no mistaking that they have gone through significant and extraordinary methods to achieve this too, with their Alfa-mom projects and what not. Even the DS has helped towards the Wii marketing ...

But Nintendo is not possessed of some marketing department that "gets it" more than the other two, its simply that the nature of the system itself allows for these grass-roots efforts. Try the Alpha-mom project with the PS3 or 360 and see where it gets you; probably not far. And that speaks to the entire shift in the Wii's appeal vs its competitors.

In contrast, the difference between the Wii-mote and the sixaxis controller is considerably smaller. A lot of the games on the Wii could be done almost exactly the same on the PS3. Also, the PS3 already through the PS2 has a vast array of Guitar Hero, DDR, SingStar, EyeToy and Time Crisis type games that have brought casual gaming to consoles much earlier, as well as backward compatibility with the PS2, a vast collective memory of good experiences and favorite franchises from its 120.000.000 sized installbase in the previous generation, and so on.

Well, I would contend that in fact the most important games on the Wii - at least from a viral perspective - the Sixaxis could not easily mimic. It's tennis, it's golf... yes, these are among the most simple games it offers, but these are the games the system has ridden to fame on. As for Singstar and EyeToy, I'm going to bring up the regional differences once more. In the United States, these two are virtual unknowns, and are not marketed at all. IMO this is a mistake - I personally am a huge EyeToy fan - but nevertheless it's the case, and in terms of physical interactivity is concerned, it is perceived as the sole realm of the Wii here.

But because the Wii was easier to develop for, and its only unique feature was the motion control, all development and marketing efforts focus on the wii-mote, causing it to mature early, and with the low price, and relatively quick and cheap development cycle, it got all these features into customers hands early too.

I don't disagree; but I do think that by reducing the Wii to "only unique feature," you are ignoring how that feature serves as a massive differentiator for the system in the minds of a lot of people. I would say that even were it to be imitated outright at this point, for the next couple of years at least Nintendo would be as strongly associated with motion control as Apple is with digital music players - that's how much of an impression the system has made.

 

[Scott_Arm]

But there are so many interesting paralels, and not just the one of having a unique control method. If the PS3 had been $250, then would the Wii even had had the time and chance to pick up a buzz from the street, before everyone started to massively replace their PS2s with PS3s, which they could have done almost painlessly because everything is so compatible, with nicer saves management to boot, some good early games, integrated bluray, webbrowser, upscaling and what not. And with the market expected to grow so quickly, I think we would have seen much more attention from developers much earlier, also on the PSN games side of things.

The impact of all that is much more significant. So I'm pointing out how important price is for the Wii, not because price alone matters, but because of the effect of price in the myriad of other factors is very significant.

Price is definitely important, but a lot of these arguments are kind of pointless. Sure, if the PS3 was $250, it would be selling a lot better, but it's not, and it won't be for a long time. You can question whether a PS3 at that price would have killed some of the Wii sales, but a PS3 launched at $250 would be a very different machine then the ones people have in their homes right now. Nintendo targeted a price that is more consumer friendly, but if the system wasn't worth the money, people still wouldn't buy it. The system obviously represents value for money for a lot of people, and it's not like it's cheap. It's relatively cheap compared to the PS3 and 360, but it's not absolutely cheap. I think the Wii would sell at a higher price, just at a far lower rate.

 

[Scott_Arm]

Personally I feel the marketing for the Wii was better than the product. The controller has never felt right to me, the cursor in the menus and in games (I only have Wii Sports and Scarface, I've played RedSteel and Wii Play as well) never feels like it's where I'm pointing. There not much accuracy in Wii Sports and the camera gets all confused a lot in Scarface. Furthermore, I can't setup the sensor bar to work with my projector since the screen is on the opposite side of the room. I wish i knew more on how the controller works, so I could evaluate whether games will improve in the future. Right now I've no intention on investing in any games for the Wii.

On a separate note, the best motion control implementation I've played is the Heavenly Sword's aftertouch feature. I've started to do some real magic bullet stuff with the arrows now.

The Wii remote is not a pointer in the traditional sense. If you aim the remote at the screen the cursor will not show up at that point. Aim with the cursor, not with the remote.

 

[StefanS]

I mainly talking about parts such as "Hollywood, the Wii's GPU, also contains the southbridge and a DSP for audio processing. It is based on the GameCube's GPU, Flipper, and has no notable increases in programmability."

It just seems a little bold to say that flat out without any references, even though you clarify a subset of that claim later. Something like "..and though there has been some discussion on this point, our sources in the Wii development community have confirmed that it has no notable increases in programmability." would be a good deal more convincing without sacrificing anyone's anonymity.

Just my 2cents

Point taken. (even though I thought that was clear from the context, one of the next sentences being: "Developers have even told us that the transition guide (for GameCube developers moving to the Wii) is ten pages long and contains only very minor changes.").

 

[DuckThor Evil]

So you really think PS3 is NOT too much stuff for a non-geek customer? And how about XB live? Most "common" people still aren't even online, let alone ready to deal with Live or such.

It is a bit over engineered. One could also argue that it's future proof... Once they get the price down the over engineered part is problem no more, if you don't need some of it's functions, then don't use em, it's not like you have to watch Blu-ray movies if you don't want to. Live is not something you must pay for either. I much rather see over engineering than under engineering where Wii is setting new benchmarks...

Last time I checked there was no money from Nintendo on my account.

I didn't think so, as I have never thought they pay money to people who have memorized their PR releases and sings them on messageboards

And no, it's not me saying this but the sales numbers.

I think the situation is slightly more complicated than that. We will have to wait and see how things end up. Until Wii reaches Gamecube numbers and goes way beyond, it's too early to set up victory poles. This current gen is different than what we have had before. It's still possible that Wii loses it's breath.

 

[Arwin]

Price is definitely important, but a lot of these arguments are kind of pointless. Sure, if the PS3 was $250, it would be selling a lot better, but it's not, and it won't be for a long time. You can question whether a PS3 at that price would have killed some of the Wii sales, but a PS3 launched at $250 would be a very different machine then the ones people have in their homes right now. Nintendo targeted a price that is more consumer friendly, but if the system wasn't worth the money, people still wouldn't buy it. The system obviously represents value for money for a lot of people, and it's not like it's cheap. It's relatively cheap compared to the PS3 and 360, but it's not absolutely cheap. I think the Wii would sell at a higher price, just at a far lower rate.

I know this. I'm having a discussion with Carl B how much beyond price and marketing the Wii 'phenomenon' is going. Nothing much more, nothing much less.

 

[Carl B]

So the difference for me, is with the DS I have had hours upon hours of fun and it is still played regularly by everyone in the household, I cannot say the same for the Wii. I can be branded Wii hater or not, but more often than not it is by those that still don't have the system, or the "we hate everything Microsoft" crowd.

I think you bring up a very valid secondary point in concern to the Wii; how quickly does one tire of it? But the same could be said for any console without knowing relative numbers - some people played their PS2 constantly for years... some simply stopped. Have you played MP3 and the new Mario entries; what were your thoughts on those? Or were you in it mainly for the Wii Sports-like titles and such?

 

[Arwin]

That logic doesn't work though, because it's premised on the strength of the 360 in the US. The Wii sells out - it sells out! - in the US week after week. The 360 does not, but sells a lot more than in Europe. In Europe neither the 360 or the Wii are in a sold-out condition, so I would say your point here reflects more the poor relative porformance of the 360 in Europe more than any other one thing.

I would agree with you except that all figures are higher for the US for every console platform. Even the PS3. So comparatively, the difference isn't big enough.

Apart from that there are big local differences as well. The Wii is selling well enough over here, and it has been sold out until quite recently. More to the point, I've been having conversations on the Wii with the sister of my grandma at my grandma's birthday party.

On the other hand, I personally don't know anyone with a Wii (except for the guy who sold his). But that doesn't say much, as I also don't know anyone with a 360. And that I know 6 people with a PS3 is just plain weird, especially since 4 of those are colleagues at a job I just started half a year ago (I'm not counting any of my LAN party friends, as in that area I only have contact with GT fanboys ).

But Nintendo is not possessed of some marketing department that "gets it" more than the other two, its simply that the nature of the system itself allows for these grass-roots efforts. Try the Alpha-mom project with the PS3 or 360 and see where it gets you; probably not far. And that speaks to the entire shift in the Wii's appeal vs its competitors.

I think they do. You say it yourself. Sony never even made an attempt to market stuff like SingStar in the U.S. yet. It's no surprise you don't know it - it's never been released there yet! Singstar PS3 will be the first version of SingStar in the U.S.

Now you go and tell me that marketing has nothing to do with this. Sony has left a huge hole in the U.S. market in this area, and Nintendo are taking the full opportunity left to them, and then some. Do you know any other console manufacturor that targeted moms so directly in recent history?

And we even agree on this point. So what are we discussing again?

Well, I would contend that in fact the most important games on the Wii - at least from a viral perspective - the Sixaxis could not easily mimic. It's tennis, it's golf... yes, these are among the most simple games it offers, but these are the games the system has ridden to fame on.

Wii Tennis does not seem to use the pointer, and even if I'm wrong, it doesn't need it. In fact, you'd be surprised how many games don't seem to use the pointer function, which is the only difference. Apart from obviously, the shape.

I don't disagree; but I do think that by reducing the Wii to "only unique feature," you are ignoring how that feature serves as a massive differentiator for the system in the minds of a lot of people.

I know that some people are, but I'm not sure I am.

I would say that even were it to be imitated outright at this point, for the next couple of years at least Nintendo would be as strongly associated with motion control as Apple is with digital music players - that's how much of an impression the system has made.

It's a combination of bringing motion control to center stage, using it as your single identity, and bringing the best and most focussed implementation of it to the table.

However, eventually it will also draw attention to the PS3's motion controls. I think that right now people are either ignorant of the PS3's motion control features (and they really are - each time I pass a Motorstorm booth in the stores I point out how to set the feature, to the surprise and delight of the person playing), or they don't realise how similar the sixaxis motionsensing capabilities are to that of the Wii.

What Sony (or whomever) needs to do, is make the most out of them, and take advantage of the focus on motion control that the Wii offers. The PS3's implementation isn't going to exclipse the Wii's implementation in terms of technical excellence, because the Wii-mote is a superior device for most motion focussed applications (for hybrid applications the PS3's is probably better). However, the sixaxis is good enough for most things, and then the PS3 has far superior processing power and graphics definition. Those should be used to combine this to create great little games with cool physics and motion control combined.

No matter how good in theory a game where you can fly dragons with motion controls sounds, they shouldn't rely on mammoth games like Lair for this kind of thing. Fun implementations of the principle in small accessible games can be much more effective. I'm thinking of a Mercury Meltdown as a typical example of a game that could and should be really great and beautiful on the PS3, with natural materials, even better physics and really convincing looking mercury that can break down to really tiny droplets. But even if you don't go there, you could easily make it a downloadable game for the PS3 and it should be popular enough.

The main problem obviously in these things is that to make the most out of that advantage of the PS3 takes more work initially. But regardless, if motion control becomes as much of a focus for game development as it is for the Wii, then it would also become more like the asset it is for the Wii and the initial whining and moaning about them would have died down sooner.

But we'll get there eventually. Heavenly Sword makes good use of the motion controls, Warhawk makes good use of the motion controls, Motorstorm makes good use of them, and it's still early days. But I am hoping that they will pick it up. Maybe the dualshock 3 will bring the focus back to the controller in that respect as well.

 

[Carl B]

I think they do. You say it yourself. Sony never even made an attempt to market stuff like SingStar in the U.S. yet. It's no surprise you don't know it - it's never been released there yet! Singstar PS3 will be the first version of SingStar in the U.S.

Oh but it has been released! And for well over a year now. In fact, it's sold in all the major stores like Best Buy and such - truly it's just a matter of poor marketing. The projects that come out of SCEE-land have been poorly handled here by SCEA.

Now you go and tell me that marketing has nothing to do with this. Sony has left a huge hole in the U.S. market in this area, and Nintendo are taking the full opportunity left to them, and then some. Do you know any other console manufacturor that targeted moms so directly in recent history?

And we even agree on this point. So what are we discussing again?

See but what we *don't* agree on is that Sony couldn't successfully market along those lines - like to those mothers - even if they tried, because there's no sympathetic thread they can tie themselves to. Nintendo can show obvious benefits in terms of weight-loss, activity, family-friendliness, etc... and those are associations mothers will take as obvious and thus genuine. I can't even imagine what Sony would attempt, or how it would go over.

Wii Tennis does not seem to use the pointer, and even if I'm wrong, it doesn't need it. In fact, you'd be surprised how many games don't seem to use the pointer function, which is the only difference. Apart from obviously, the shape.

But the shape is what I mean. The PS3 contoller is not fit to be grasped in one hand and swung around; this prevents it from serving in the same sports-emulation capacity which has proven to be one of the best fits for the Wii controller. Swordfighting... all of that stuff.

Anyway with the rest of your post, I agree with you in terms of what Sony themselves should be focusing on in order to highlight the feature.

PS - Worth mentioning now as well is that I've written a companion piece to the original Newsweek story to expand a little more on my divergent views.

http://www.beyond3d.com/content/articles/91/

 

[borowki]

The media is rife with examples of the Wii making its way into new areas, such as retirement homes. IMO the Wii has been doing very well in ending up in the hands of non-traditional gamers.

I remember reading a story a while back saying that over 90 percent of Wii buyers have previously own a console. The notion that the controller is the main impediment to video games is wishful thinking in my opinion.

 

[Carl B]

I remember reading a story a while back saying that over 90 percent of Wii buyers have previously own a console. The notion that the controller is the main impediment to video games is wishful thinking in my opinion.

But who here has said that it was an impediment? Rather - the new controller is an enabler.

 

[Skrying]

My main point is that the hardware discussion is completely and utterly tired out. If you don't know then you really were not that curious in the first place. People need to look out beyond the reasons of hardware for why the Wii is a success. Pricing, marketing, market readiness, other potentials.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The article wasn't about why the Wii is a success! It was an article on what's inside the Wii. Is that discussion completely tired out? If so, so is the reason Wii is selling well! All have been talked to death. I assume in this case, Newsweek's readers haven't covered enough Wii hardware discussion to be fed up of it yet. Certainly Croal felt his readers would like to hear what's in Wii from a reliable source.

 

[fearsomepirate]

What I was confused about was where they said the dies were all about the same size. Wasn't the Wii GPU supposed to be significantly larger than the Gamecube's, even after a die shrink, or did I miss something there?

 

[_xxx_]

I didn't think so, as I have never thought they pay money to people who have memorized their PR releases and sings them on messageboards

First, I've been a gamer since early 90's and pretty much saw it all. Second, I've been posting here several years and was always on the rather objective side of things. Third, I never even saw a single press release from nintendo, but am talking about MY OWN experiences.

Even just trying to mark me as a dumb forum-f*nboy or a PR-parrot is just plain stupid, sorry.

 

[DuckThor Evil]

First, I've been a gamer since early 90's and pretty much saw it all. Second, I've been posting here several years and was always on the rather objective side of things. Third, I never even saw a single press release from nintendo, but am talking about MY OWN experiences.

Even just trying to mark me as a dumb forum-f*nboy or a PR-parrot is just plain stupid, sorry.

No need to get upset, I know you are a smart human being. I'm just tired of seeing and hearing when negative things about Nintendo platforms are spinned into positives. First some people were saying that the N64 carts were actually better for gaming purposes, then it was actully good that Gamecube coulndn't play DVD-movies, because it in some mysterious meant that Cube was more focused on games, making it a better machine for games... Now we have this under engineered game console, a console that basically got no upgrade whatsoever to it's old predecessor and it's supposed to be a good thing in some way. One could argue that the lower price point is a good thing, but the price is not low for what you are getting.

Now I'm not saying that you or anybody else coulnd't get more fun out of the Wii, which in the end is the most important thing. The new control method definately brings new stuff on the table, I just get upset when clear negatives are spinned into positives, because that's PR in its ugliest form imo. But yeah I could have written in a more polite manner, sorry about that. I'm on a diet...

 

[borowki]

But who here has said that it was an impediment? Rather - the new controller is an enabler.

That means the same thing. I just don't see a large segment of the population wanting to play games but were unable to prior to the Wii remote. They don't play because they don't like the typical console games--that's a much more likely reason. If you look at the DS, with which Nintendo is in fact expanding the market, you see games that are wholly different: Brain Age, Nintendog, etc. While motion-sensing is interesting, at the end, what you have are still games dependent on reflex, spatial thinking, and hand-eye coordination.