My new computer - Suggestions would be helpful.

[Natoma]

I just priced a dell 4600 3.0HT w/512 meg (DDR400), Dell 20" LCD (1600x1200), 9800 pro, XP home, 60GB HD for $2149. Comes with a 1 year warranty, etc.



That would leave you $1700 to buy crack with.

Well if I remove the Samsung, the price of the system drops to $2400 roughly.

Hmmmm.... Does Dell sell their LCDs separately?

 

[RussSchultz]

LCDs won't be good for color matching any time in the near future.

Of course, if you're just doing photoshop contests for FARK, it won't matter much.

 

[Natoma]

Natoma:

"4) 650w is overkill even for four hard drives (going to RAID them into two RAID0 arrays), a CD-RW, CD-ROM/DVD-ROM combo, and 5 case fans? I just want to make sure I've got enough power."

My disk server runs on a 430W Enermax PSU and it powers 13 harddisks, 7 case fans and a P3-700. The 650W/550W is overkill.

Hmmm. Have you ever had any issues with power, or the machine turning off? I really really want to make sure that I've got not only enough power for today, but if I add components in the future.

Also, the four Hard drives are spinning at 10000 RPM. I'll have 5 case fans, and a P4-3Ghz, which I'm assuming pulls a lot more power than a P3-700.

Is there a way to actually calculate need based on the parts I'm running? I just don't want to take a chance of purchasing all these parts, and then leave the power wanting.

Will a 400Mhz FSB Athlon be better for our usage patterns?

Won't really matter much. For office use anything over 1GHz is more than enough, and for games sometimes the P4 is faster and sometimes the AMD is faster. Unless you have a favourite game that runs much better on one than the other there is no big diff.

I'll probably end up running FPS like DOOM, Half Life 2, and UT2K3. However, I also want to get into games like Warcraft III and maybe Asheron's Call 2. One of the MMORPGs.

What I'd look into is what kind of cooling solution you are going to use and find something quiet. The stock HSF on a 3GHz P4 is anything but quiet or comfortable IMO. In general, dropping the GHz by 0.2 and buying a more expensive and quiet cooling solution is the way to go. You are supposed to be in the same room as the computer, right? Then again, if you're gonna OC you can just forget this last paragraph. (PS: The P4 3GHz isn't the best CPU if you're gonna OC, the 2.4 seems to be the rage these days).

Well that's the thing, I don't think we're going to overclock much in the beginning. Moreso if/when we want/need the extra power in the future. My friend Jon was able to oc his 3.0C to 3.5Ghz with the stock Intel fan and no voltage bump, so I was looking for maybe something like that.

So I was going to RAID0 two on the Intel and two on the Silicon Image for two logical drives, each 72GB.

Are you really sure you need the STR of a raid-0 with modern 8MB cache disks? Getting 45-50MB/sec on a single IDE drive isn't farfetched, so will you really notice an increase up to 80-90MB/sec? (Also keep in mind that raid-0 lowers the fault-tolerance of the disk subsystem.) Personally I'd think grabbing a 200GB Maxtor/WD sata disk would be better, cheaper, cooler and less noisy.

Hmm.. Would it be better then if I put the Western Digital Raptors on the SI RAID SATA ports as my boot disk (according to reviews it's far faster than the default Intel ICH5-R port setup), then get that 200GB SATA disk you're talking about and put it on the other port in a RAID1 setup?

Is RAID0 really that unstable that I need to worry about doing the RAID0 setup on both channels I specified earlier?

Oh, the same friend, Jon. He has two Raptors in a RAID0 setup and it's really really quiet. That's why I didn't think noise would be an issue.

 

[Natoma]

LCDs won't be good for color matching any time in the near future.

Of course, if you're just doing photoshop contests for FARK, it won't matter much.

No the photoshop work I do is usually to open up PSDs and image cropping and whatnot for work. Our clients send us the PSDs and then we have to generate the images from those PSDs. I'm not a graphic artist by any stretch of the imagination.

Damn. Ok it sounds like everyone is pushing me towards a CRT purchase. However, I really need to get one that's not too deep. Space constraints really is an issue. Our current monitor is 17-18" deep, and if we could shave another 2-3" off, it would be perfect. I would get a CRT for that. But it needs to be 21".

It's the Hitachi CM814 Superscan. A shortneck.

 

[kyleb]

i really do not think you will find a crt that is 21" and only 15" deep. however again i have to warn against an lcd. according to newegg the native resolution is 1600x1200 and that should be the same in anolog or digital as it is directly related to the physical number of pixels on the screen and max res is always native res on an lcd. also people may say that 25ms is not an issue but then again those are probably the same people that don't mind 60hz on a crt. as for the space issue, i recomend rearageing the room, maybe putting the desk in a corner at an angle so the monitor can hang off the back would do the trick for you.

 

[indio]

http://www.overdrivepc.com/index.php?
I know these ppl. personally they will build anything you want and there service and quality of there products is second to none. I suggest checking out there site at the very least. They have booths at major gaming events i.e. Quakecon and their reseller rating is exellent.

 

[RussSchultz]

Hmmmm.... Does Dell sell their LCDs separately?

I bought a PLANAR 20" from DELL(I think its the same LCD monitor) for ~$700, but that was a glitch in the system. Its usually about $800.

 

[Natoma]

i really do not think you will find a crt that is 21" and only 15" deep. however again i have to warn against an lcd. according to newegg the native resolution is 1600x1200 and that should be the same in anolog or digital as it is directly related to the physical number of pixels on the screen and max res is always native res on an lcd. also people may say that 25ms is not an issue but then again those are probably the same people that don't mind 60hz on a crt. as for the space issue, i recomend rearageing the room, maybe putting the desk in a corner at an angle so the monitor can hang off the back would do the trick for you.

Ok you know what, we'll keep our Hitachi CM814 Superscan and bump off the LCD for now. I just finished reading something about OLED being superior to LCD anyways, and that coming out at the end of the year, or early next year.

That'll be nice I suppose. It knocks the price from of the system from $3,800 to $2,400.

 

[Natoma]

Ok based on responses here and elsewhere, these are updated specs:

Definite:

Pentium 4 3.0Ghz (800Mhz FSB)
Gigabyte GA-8KNXP
Four Thermaltake Smart Fan II
1GB TWINX1024-3200LLPT Corsair PC3200 Memory
Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro 256MB DDR
2 Western Digital SATA 36GB 10,000 RPM HD (RAID-0 for booting and program installation)
Samsung SD-816B 16x/48x DVD-CD Combo Drive (512KB Buffer)
Samsung SW-252BRNS 52x24x52 Retail CD-RW Drive (8MB Buffer)
VAV W-X1W ATX Silver Case
Enermax's Whispersys System Exhaust Blower
Two Hard Disk / CD/DVD/CDRW Drive Cooler, for 5.25 bay. 3 fans.

Pending:

1a) Swiftech MCX4000
1b) Zalman CNPS7000
1c) AVC 117140

2a) Enermax EG651P-VE 550w/650w Power Supply
2b) Enermax EG465P-VE 430w/450w Power Supply

3a) 2 Western Digital SATA 36GB 10,000 RPM HD (multimedia/backups/yadda - RAID0)
3b) 2 Western Digital SATA 120GB 7200 RPM HD (multimedia/backups/yadda - RAID1)

Gone:

Samsung LCD Monitor 210T - We'll wait on this one. Maybe OLED will be better.

 

[pascal]

I have a Trinitron G420 at work and use it at the recomended resolution (1280x1024x85x32). It is fantastic. Really better than that only wide screen trinitrons like what id use (PREMIERPRO Series 24 FD Trinitron) 8)

The artists also have aperture grille trinitrons and they say it is much better than any shadow mask. I have trinitrons at home and I love it

Also some people will try to use the 1600x1200 in equipment (LCDs) that the physical grid is only 1280x1024. IMHO it is not a good option.

Also you will like the Zalman 80mm case fans.

 

[pascal]

IMHO 1b) 2b) 3b)

 

[demalion]

...

Yea we're probably going to overclock after a little while running it at default speeds. I just want to make sure we've got high enough quality components so that if/when we want/need the extra speed, we can kick the machine into higher gear.

The components look good. I noticed earlier that your mobo has a decent looking northbridge cooler (active), so you should be fine.

Thank you. I did some googling on the Zalman CNPS7000 cooler and found a review of it on frostytech. The sound coming out of it is sooooo quiet!

They said it's only rated at 42 DbA. The Swiftech cooler with the Thermalright fan rates at 45 DbA though, so not much louder, but it does perform a little bit better in terms of keeping ambient case temperature down.

That's at Max RPM...the design is effective at lower RPMs as well. I intended to back off the full speed, but the lack of noise and reasons to tinker sort of monkey-wrenched that for now.

The three coolers that seemed to perform really well, with a 40-45 DbA rating, were the Swiftech MCX4000 + Thermaltake Smart Fan II, the Zalman CNPS7000, and the AVC 117140.

I don't think there is a wrong choice with the amount of research you've put into looking at them, though the AVC seems like it will be noisier.

...

Have you considered PC Power and Cooling, though?

What's that? A brand of computer maker? Or something else?

Brand of PSU. Here, take a look at: their website, some quiet PSUs, and louder ones. Compare the variations and amperage specs with the Enermax models you listed. After actually looking at the specs, however, the Enermax really isn't that loud.

...

From what I've read, the enermax unit is as quiet as most PSUs though. Do you know a good DbA level for a PSU that I can reference with?

It does seem a good selection if the sound output chart on the site is accurate. For myself, I went Antec for the "Fan Only" case fan control function and quiet operation. Well, and because I liked their Sonata case that came bundled with one of their PSUs. Don't have sound output figures, but the 380 and 350 are pretty quiet....they market the 550 as quiet as well, but...that's marketing.

 

[Althornin]

if you want backups and vital storage, RAID 1 is the only choice (unless you can get raid 5). It still offers increased read speed, just not write - but despite the MTBF on the WD Raptor SATA drives, you want the extra reliability of RAID 1

 

[Bogotron]

My disk server runs on a 430W Enermax PSU and it powers 13 harddisks, 7 case fans and a P3-700. The 650W/550W is overkill.

Hmmm. Have you ever had any issues with power, or the machine turning off?

Nope, nothing like that. Has worked fine for over a year with the only downtime being OS upgrade and a couple of windows update reboots.

Also, the four Hard drives are spinning at 10000 RPM. I'll have 5 case fans, and a P4-3Ghz, which I'm assuming pulls a lot more power than a P3-700.

I'd think so. I've got a new motherboard for the diskbox (IC7-G w/2.4GHz P4), but I haven't had the guts to try it on the current PSU yet since my 12v rail is running low. Rough estimation tells me it should work, but I think I'll wait for my beefier PSU (the enermax 550W ) before I upgrade. With that I should easily be able to run both the P4 board and 3-4 extra harddisks.

Is there a way to actually calculate need based on the parts I'm running? I just don't want to take a chance of purchasing all these parts, and then leave the power wanting.

Well, I use the rule of 100W for the cpu (mixed 3.3, 5 and 12v), 50-60W (3.3,5v) for the MB+memory, 50-70w@3.3/5v for the gfx card (depending on your choice between ati and nvidia of cource ), 2A@12v/disk&optical drive, 4W@12v/case fan and rough guesstimation of the other components. Just guesstimations on peak powerdrain though.

I'll probably end up running FPS like DOOM, Half Life 2, and UT2K3. However, I also want to get into games like Warcraft III and maybe Asheron's Call 2. One of the MMORPGs.

I.e. no preference at all.

Well that's the thing, I don't think we're going to overclock much in the beginning. Moreso if/when we want/need the extra power in the future. My friend Jon was able to oc his 3.0C to 3.5Ghz with the stock Intel fan and no voltage bump, so I was looking for maybe something like that.

Only way to guarantee a good OC is to get a peltier and a watercooling rig. Any other way and your left with a major gamble in regards to the cpu batch etc. I've tried OCing my P4, and it reached 3.2 without much fuss, but anything higher and it wasn't too happy. Also the stock intel fan started getting pretty persistent, sounded like a bunch of angry wasps trapped inside the case. It's probably the memory holding it back, but a 3GHz is a really poor choice for OCing overall. There is very little headroom for overclocking, and if you pooch it you've just thrown 400 bucks out the window. You can get 2-3 2.4GHz P4s and stress-test them. Then you throw away the ones that OC the worst...

Hmm.. Would it be better then if I put the Western Digital Raptors on the SI RAID SATA ports as my boot disk (according to reviews it's far faster than the default Intel ICH5-R port setup), then get that 200GB SATA disk you're talking about and put it on the other port in a RAID1 setup?

Well, for raid-1 you need two drives (and you get only 50% of the total diskspace), so it's good for "safe storage" of data. So you'll need 2x200GB disks, but by all means, run them in raid-1. It should let you sleep better at night knowing that the bulk of your data is safe. Now, how about an UPS?

I'm booting off a 120GB maxtor sata disk and it's very fast, even when I haven't installed the Intel application accelerator drivers (the installer won't agree that my chipset is 875P... :? ). Faster than my old 80GB barracuda on an nforce chipset, so performance-wise I suppose a raid-0 raptor would be faster, but only for STR. Seek and access times remain the same (or are slightly worse) in a raid-0 setup, so do you really need massive sequential transfer rates?

Is RAID0 really that unstable that I need to worry about doing the RAID0 setup on both channels I specified earlier?

Well, in raid-0, if one of the disks buy it, then all data is gone. Doubles the chance that you'll lose data from a disk crash (when using 2 drives, it gets worse the more drives you stripe). Important data should be on tape/cd-r and/or a raid-5 system anyway.

Oh, the same friend, Jon. He has two Raptors in a RAID0 setup and it's really really quiet. That's why I didn't think noise would be an issue.

Only 10k rpm disks I've been near are some oldish seagate scsi thingys and damn are they noisy, but then again thats fairly common for scsi disks. If you can actually listen to them yourself there is no better way of making up your mind if they're quite or not.

 

[PC-Engine]

i really do not think you will find a crt that is 21" and only 15" deep. however again i have to warn against an lcd. according to newegg the native resolution is 1600x1200 and that should be the same in anolog or digital as it is directly related to the physical number of pixels on the screen and max res is always native res on an lcd. also people may say that 25ms is not an issue but then again those are probably the same people that don't mind 60hz on a crt. as for the space issue, i recomend rearageing the room, maybe putting the desk in a corner at an angle so the monitor can hang off the back would do the trick for you.

Ok you know what, we'll keep our Hitachi CM814 Superscan and bump off the LCD for now. I just finished reading something about OLED being superior to LCD anyways, and that coming out at the end of the year, or early next year.

That'll be nice I suppose. It knocks the price from of the system from $3,800 to $2,400.

Big cheap OLEDs are a LONG ways off. Don't hold your breath. I'd go with two 19" LCDs right now. CRTs have very little benefit over LCDs and one of them *price* isn't even an issue for you.

 

[demalion]

...

2) I considered a DVD-RW as well, but I didn't want to get stuck with a rewritable format that could be dead within a year. Besides, we're probably going to keep this system for another 3-4 years, which would put us squarely in Blu-ray country in terms of high storage rewritable medium no?

Do you know of any drives that might combine DVD-RW, DVD-RAM, and DVD-R? Or something along those lines. With the standards wars the way they are, I just don't want to get something that will be unsupported and obsolete within a year. That's why I went the safe route and stuck with a CD-RW.
...

Does this fit the bill for you? The compatibility selection is pretty rich, though no DVD-RAM listed. I purchased the DRU-10A (OEM version of the DRU-500, the predecessor to this one), which pretty much has the same features, but I do recall some reports of some possible issues with some formats that the 510 might improve upon. I'm not worried about that for my relatively conservative usage, but you might be.

EDIT: Also, ust wanted to make sure I mentioned that the Zalman cooler I"m using (all copper) is over the weight specification for CPU heatsinks (773g, versus 450g). There is an aluminum version with slightly inferior characteristics that is within the spec (445g), but crazy things like turning off the fan and seeing how long temperatures stay in spec (something I think I remember from a review of the Cu version) would probably not be quite as much fun. I think the spec might be more for shipping pre-built computers and offering abundant "rough treatment leeway".

 

[Gollum]

AFAIK DVD-RAM is dead in the water, you can pretty much forget about it. The remaining standards are + and - R/RW, both of which in this generation of DVD Burners have become pretty much compatible with the standard DVD format and are unlikely to be dropped soonish. combo +/- drives like the aforementioned Sony or the NEC ND-1300A are actually pretty good purchases. Blu-Ray and other upcoming technbologies are still quite some time away from the consumer market, so I wouldn't hold my breath for them. In the meantime you could have an awesome storage and backup solution for little cash by going with one of the 2 suggested drives. You can burn Video DVDs with them that like 80%+ of the standard DVD players should be able to play. Even a cheap + or - only burner like the NEC ND-1100A wouldn't be that bad of a choice IMO. Its cheap, good and popular, 3 good reasons that it won't be a complete dead-end investment anytime soon.

 

[Mariner]

If I remember correctly, quite a few of the new LCDs that are being released have much improved colour fidelity due to 10-bit gamma correction. This puts them on a par with CRTs colour-wise with the advantage of not being absolutely bloody enormous!

Screens produced by Sharp and Eizo, amongst others, can provide this 10-bit correction although they will probably be more expensive than the standard LCDs without this feature.

 

[Natoma]

Hey I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for helping out with the decisions. These are the final specs. I'm purchasing it now. Yay!

Pentium 4 3.0Ghz (800Mhz FSB)
Gigabyte GA-8KNXP
Swiftech MCX4000 + Four Thermaltake Smart Fan II
1GB TWINX1024-3200LLPT Corsair PC3200 Memory
Sapphire Radeon 9800 Pro 256MB DDR
2 Western Digital SATA 36GB 10,000 RPM HD (RAID-0 for booting and program installation)
2 Western Digital SATA 120GB 7200 RPM HD (multimedia/backups/yadda - RAID1)
Samsung SD-816B 16x/48x DVD-CD Combo Drive (512KB Buffer)
Samsung SW-252BRNS 52x24x52 Retail CD-RW Drive (8MB Buffer)
VAV W-X1W ATX Silver Case
Enermax EG651P-VE 550w/650w Power Supply
Enermax's Whispersys System Exhaust Blower
Two Hard Disk / CD/DVD/CDRW Drive Cooler, for 5.25 bay. 3 fans.