Michael Jackson is dead at 50

[Arwin]

It's a shame ... I was really curious to see how his 'This Is It' tour would turn out. I also don't like all the litigation and rumour mongering around him. When someone is found not-guilty, you can't go around treating him like he's convicted.

Normally I really hate when big artists die for another reason - their songs will be way overplayed. Thankfully MJ has been a little underplayed because of his loss in status, and his music is decent, so I guess I'll live.

Seriously though, MJ certainly is one special character. I think if he didn't actually die but this is a ploy to go undercover and get a new life and it works, he'd deserve it. But probably he's just dead, and it's a big shame. Strangers in Moscow was an 'our song' for me at one time in my life, by the way.

 

[John Reynolds]

When someone is found not-guilty, you can't go around treating him like he's convicted.

Well, the problem with this thinking is the first go-'round he paid out purportedly millions to get the kid + family to drop the charges (which screamed guilt in my eyes). A few years later he gets indicted for the same thing again, and this time the alleged victim + family are horrible witnesses. Would I have ever left my 2yo son alone around the man following his not-guilty verdict? Not in a million years.

I'm very quickly growing sick of the media jumping on this ratings bonanza. Jackson was undoubtedly talented, but following the enormous success of Thriller, the release of which had the good fortune of amazing timing with the advent of MTV and videos, it was all downhill. He basically had no musical career over the last decade+, his personal life overshadowing his artistic efforts.

 

[obonicus]

I'm very quickly growing sick of the media jumping on this ratings bonanza. Jackson was undoubtedly talented, but following the enormous success of Thriller, the release of which had the good fortune of amazing timing with the advent of MTV and videos, it was all downhill. He basically had no musical career over the last decade+, his personal life overshadowing his artistic efforts.

Let's not be too revisionist. The last MJ album I liked was Bad, but even Invincible sold 8 million copies. Everything else was multi-diamond. Sure, it was downhill since thriller, but a very gentle, rolling downhill that amounted to nearly 80 million sales.

I won't touch on the rest of it other than to say that I don't find it particularly relevant -- if I were to change my opinion on an artist's oeuvre based on their being a bastard (and I think MJ was more f***ed up than bastard), well, there wouldn't be that many left I could like.

 

[tangey]

By all accounts he was an excellent showman, I never got to see him life, but apparently one of his concerts was a thing to behold.

I feel quite sad, I genuniely don't know what he got up to in his personal life, I truely hope and want to beleive that he was just badly mis-understood and actually a naive and innocent man in the true sense of the words.

Like many, I grew up with him, and when he broke through it was just a totally different musical experience, I don't recall anyone approaching his "wow" factor as a new arrival on the music scene since, or maybe I just stopped being "wowed" in general.

It would have been the greatest comeback if he had been able to do even a few of those concerts and really NAIL IT, after 10 year out. And a tragedy if they had turned out to be a fascade of the original MJ.

We'll never know.

 

[Nite_Hawk]

Immitation is the sincerest form of flattery:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LbvP7dT3Dx0&feature=player_embedded

Nite_Hawk

 

[Carl B]

Bollywood in general I consider to have tons of Michael Jackson elements scattered throughout. Every time there's a "cool guy" dance scene, it's straight MJ emulation.

Now I'm not a big consumer of Bollywood, but there is this super-tasty Indian restaurant I like to go to, and they always have some film or another going, so I've seen into the double-digits now. MJ is a cultural touchstone for dance and pop for I'd say what amounts to the majority of the world.

 

[John Reynolds]

Let's not be too revisionist. The last MJ album I liked was Bad, but even Invincible sold 8 million copies. Everything else was multi-diamond. Sure, it was downhill since thriller, but a very gentle, rolling downhill that amounted to nearly 80 million sales.

Were either of those released in the last decade (the actual time period I commented on)? My only real point was that, fair or unfair, his personal issues certainly occluded the music in his latter years (at least here state-side). And the media and those they're giving voice to are being silly in their rush to heap on the adulation. He paved the way for black artists I heard on Fox last night; umm, Motown and other artists like Chuck Berry resent that.

I won't touch on the rest of it other than to say that I don't find it particularly relevant -- if I were to change my opinion on an artist's oeuvre based on their being a bastard (and I think MJ was more f***ed up than bastard), well, there wouldn't be that many left I could like.

I agree with the view that he was more of a damaged soul than a person who, if indeed guilty of those charges, relished hurting others. But I've always had a hard time separating the artist from the individual if we're going to discuss the latter (which we are). If we want to discuss just his musical contributions over the last 30+ years, then that's fine. But the man himself died, not his art, and his weird behavior, his drastic appearance changes, those indictments, etc., are all a part of the history of his life.

 

[digitalwanderer]

I am. This is General Discussion.

Damn, colour me "Doh!".

What idiot put this thread in General? It should be in RPSC!

/me checks the OP

Double-doh!

I guess I'm with John a bit on this, I can't separate the man from the entertainer. I was a teen during MJ's heyday so I remember his music quite well, but all I know of him from the last decade or so was some horrible scandals and weirdness.

I'm not trying to bash him here particularly, just don't want to see his faults overlooked either as to me they seemed pretty damned major.

 

[nutball]

The media coverage of this is pissing me off. Seems to me that if you're in entertainment or the media then your value as a human being is instantly ten times that of any other person in any other walk of life. Never mind what the true value of your contribution to the human race.

Some guy who invents a cure for cancer dies, he's barely worth a mention on page twenty six. Some song & dance act dies, it's the first half of *every* news bulletin and on the front page of every newspaper.

 

[Carl B]

I would argue that MJ's 'true' contribution to the human race has been quite significant, as is reflected by the outpouring we are seeing. In my first post in this thread, I mentioned his breaking down walls, both literal and figurative. I think if you consider the Cold War years if nothing else, and the idea that here was a man emblematic of 'The West' if only in culture, who was winning the ears of listeners in the Eastern Bloc and in communist Asia... I mean, I don't know. Music and blue jeans I would say were symbolic of the cracks in the foundations of communism that brought the Berlin wall down and ended the USSR.

Maybe art is under-appreciated by some on this forum; fair enough. But as far as artists go, he was the pinnacle of his craft.

Frankly when it comes to charges of child molestation, I'm inclined to believe them. It's just, I don't care in this context. Like Ghandi was an abusive husband and father, I think it's going way to far to another extreme to look at Michael Jackson's scandals and via that prism devalue his very real contributions to music, dance, and culture over the span of his life.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

The media coverage of this is pissing me off. Seems to me that if you're in entertainment or the media then your value as a human being is instantly ten times that of any other person in any other walk of life. Never mind what the true value of your contribution to the human race.

Some guy who invents a cure for cancer dies, he's barely worth a mention on page twenty six. Some song & dance act dies, it's the first half of *every* news bulletin and on the front page of every newspaper.

That's because news isn't really news any more - it's entertainment.

 

[Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.]

I would argue that MJ's 'true' contribution to the human race has been quite significant, as is reflected by the outpouring we are seeing. In my first post in this thread, I mentioned his breaking down walls, both literal and figurative. I think if you consider the Cold War years if nothing else, and the idea that here was a man emblematic of 'The West' if only in culture, who was winning the ears of listeners in the Eastern Bloc and in communist Asia... I mean, I don't know. Music and blue jeans I would say were symbolic of the cracks in the foundations of communism that brought the Berlin wall down and ended the USSR.

Now that is revisionist! You're saying he brought down communism?

I think you'll find that people like the Beatles or Elton John were doing that long before Michael Jackson was heard of in the former USSR.

Maybe art is under-appreciated by some on this forum; fair enough. But as far as artists go, he was the pinnacle of his craft.

I dunno about that. Maybe some of us on this forum who were around at the time and have a wider view of art simply think that there are others more deserving of being considered at the pinnacle of music. Maybe people who play musical instruments and write their own songs. It's not like Michael Jackson didn't stand on the shoulders of others to get where he was. Without Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson, The Drifters, Otis Redding and many of the other Motown artists, would we have had a Michael Jackson?

While at the end of the day he may have been a great pop act, he never evolved with his audience. His musical style was stagnant, and I can think of many more people who's music spoke to me more, had a bigger impact on my musical listening, and was simply more relevant to the times.

He was a pop act, a singer and dancer. He was famous and successful for a while, but in the end, I'm not sure a 50 year old man moonwalking and grabbing his crotch while squeeking and eeeking would have recaptured those times even for his fans.

 

[Carl B]

Now that is revisionist! You're saying he brought down communism?

I think you'll find that people like the Beatles or Elton John were doing that long before Michael Jackson was heard of in the former USSR.

Your second paragraph has nothing to do with what you were responding to in the first one; Michael Jackson is not mutually exclusive with the Beatles you know. Nevertheless, yes what I am saying is that in terms of the climate in the 80's and the perception of the 'West' in the 'East,' Michael Jackson was almost the living embodiment of that gulf in freedom.

I'll quote from some sites I found today:

http://www.russiablog.org/2009/06/michael_jackson_russia.php

...Among many Russian leaders, the president of Chechnya, Ramzan Kadyrov said “I deeply grieve with the musician's relatives, friends, and fans because of the untimely passing of the outstanding man, unmatchable singer Michael Jackson, whose death ends the entire epoch of the world music culture.”

Michael Jackson was a household name in the countries of the former Soviet Union. During his visits to Moscow in 1993 and 1996, he was greeted as a head of state. Radio Free Europe writes that “his live concert in Moscow in 1993 sparked near-hysteria among scores of Russians hungry for a taste of Western culture.” One of my brightest personal memories from the Nineties is attending Jackson’s History Tour concert at the Dynamo stadium in Moscow in 1996. Today, hundreds of fans laid flowers and toys near the American Embassy in Moscow and in downtown St Petersburg to honor the idol. We all deeply grieve the untimely passing of the musician who influenced our lives and cultures...

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...g-of-Michael-Jackson-/articleshow/4705147.cms

...The death of Michael Jackson gripped China on Friday, as fans spoke of how his music became the soundtrack for the nation's early years
of opening to the outside world nearly 30 years ago...

...His most popular album, "Thriller," was released here just as China opened its doors to the outside world in the early 1980s, giving the once-isolated nation its first taste of Western pop music, Wang said...

..."His contribution to mankind was overwhelming."...

Now ok - if when Elton John dies, there are Russians or Chinese lining up at the British embassy to lay down flowers and Eastern Bloc heads of state saying that the modern epoch of music has ended, then we can discuss the world as you see it (I like him just fine by the way). And these stories are just a drop among a torrential downpour of similar stories.

I dunno about that. Maybe some of us on this forum who were around at the time and have a wider view of art simply think that there are others more deserving of being considered at the pinnacle of music. Maybe people who play musical instruments and write their own songs. It's not like Michael Jackson didn't stand on the shoulders of others to get where he was. Without Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson, The Drifters, Otis Redding and many of the other Motown artists, would we have had a Michael Jackson?

Now now, I didn't say he was the pinnacle of music, I said he was the pinnacle of his craft. Which I deem to be the fusion of production, song, dance, and raw entertainment. Stevie Wonder, The Drifters, Motown... none of them would begrudge him his greatness as so many here seem want to do while evoking these artists and their era. To say nothing of the fact that MJ earned his own way simply by virtue of his Jackson 5 days. In my mind it is no less bizarre than to refrain to the US moon missions as having been built on the shoulders of German rocketry efforts. Yes... but the achievement stands on its own.

Michael Jackson's fame and success - and consider the context of the time - was transracial, transnational, and transideological. It's not that it might have been a white girl screaming and shouting to hear this young black American sing - it's that it might have been a white Russian girl, or a Chinese girl.

While at the end of the day he may have been a great pop act, he never evolved with his audience. His musical style was stagnant, and I can think of many more people who's music spoke to me more, had a bigger impact on my musical listening, and was simply more relevant to the times.

No no no - rather than saying his music didn't evolve, I would rather say that what he created was timeless. It still holds up today, and his 'style' has formed the bedrock for the best of an entire new generation of performers. Now if his music didn't speak to you, well that's all a matter of preference; certainly I don't begrudge anyone that. It's not like he's my own #1 per se either, and I'm not interested in convincing anyone who is not fond of him to think otherwise. BUT, I do ask that his impact be acknowledged rather than diminished in a cynical dodge to "true" artists or somesuch. Singing, dancing, instruments... I don't view one realm of music as higher than another. It's like sculpting vs painting.

He was a pop act, a singer and dancer. He was famous and successful for a while, but in the end, I'm not sure a 50 year old man moonwalking and grabbing his crotch while squeeking and eeeking would have recaptured those times even for his fans.

He was always famous...

 

[Tahir2]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095655/

Moonwalker.. one of the first movies I watched in cinema.
Was trying to figure the lyrics out to Smooth Criminal for years, (I was young).

Whatever you may think of Michael Jackson it is sobering to hear about someone passing and sometimes reminds us we all have to go eventually. That is a fact of life that sometimes we forget.

 

[RudeCurve]

The media coverage of this is pissing me off. Seems to me that if you're in entertainment or the media then your value as a human being is instantly ten times that of any other person in any other walk of life. Never mind what the true value of your contribution to the human race.

Some guy who invents a cure for cancer dies, he's barely worth a mention on page twenty six. Some song & dance act dies, it's the first half of *every* news bulletin and on the front page of every newspaper.

Artists like MJ are hard to come by.

Lab rats, nerds, geeks, bookworms etc could be found everywhwere. Now if someone like Einsten died that would be different.

 

[nutball]

Artists like MJ are hard to come by.

Really? In what sense? The magnitude of Jacksons success was mostly due to marketing, he wasn't innately more talented as an artist than a number of the other black musicians mentioned in this thread who pre-dated him. He (his image) was just better managed.

Now if someone like Einsten died that would be different.

Well that would be an interesting experiment. I'm sure Hawking will get a front-page mention when he pops off, but that's only because he's The Wheelchair Guy not because of his achievements. I seriously doubt he'll get the first half of every news bulletin and a couple of rapidly-put-together one-hour Life Of Stephen Hawking Specials parachuted into the prime time Friday night TV schedule.

 

[Fred]

Obviously MJ was an iconic figure to millions, so his death is going to cause a lot of waves.

Someone like Hans Bethe dies, (who indisputably was far more important to the course of human history and advancement) it doesn't make as much. That's just the way it works, the public is aware of who certain figures are and are blithefully ignorant of others.

Hawking is a good example, b/c he's a public figure, but quite far down on the list of great physicists. He's a great one, no doubt, but not in the same ballpark as many other, far less known ones.

 

[obonicus]

Really? In what sense? The magnitude of Jacksons success was mostly due to marketing, he wasn't innately more talented as an artist than a number of the other black musicians mentioned in this thread who pre-dated him. He (his image) was just better managed.

As Carl said, it's not just about the music, it's about his artistry as a 'performer'. And at that he was a virtuoso, he had amazing chops even as a tyke.

 

[Kaotik]

If his success was just marketing, people need to start hiring his marketing people seriously, I mean, if Thriller album has sold over twice the next most album in the world (~105 million vs under 50 million), and it's all about marketing, there has to be some really genious marketing behind it

 

[V3]

If his success was just marketing, people need to start hiring his marketing people seriously, I mean, if Thriller album has sold over twice the next most album in the world (~105 million vs under 50 million), and it's all about marketing, there has to be some really genious marketing behind it

Yep it's all marketing. Promotional Video that's more like short film that we watched regularly now days, I think they were the first success.

Well RIP

My first memory of him was watching Thriller video in 88. I was young, the video scared the crap out of me. I am not a big fan of him. But I like Smooth Criminal video, the anti-grav lean was cool, like that effect more than moonwalk. I'll remember him for that.