Matrox Parhelia truth..

S

stefandxm

Newcomer
Hi Stefan,
Unfortunately hardware displacement mapping can only be exposed through
DX9 and there are no plans for a DX9 driver for Parhelia yet,
Regards,

~~~~~
Omar Yehia, Developer Relations Representative (Entertainment), Matrox
Graphics Inc.
Phone: 514-822-6000x2018 Fax: 514-685-7030 Email: oyehia@matrox.com
Web: http://developer.matrox.com
Head office:
1055 Saint Regis blvd., Dorval, Quebec, Canada, H9P 2T4
(Mail coming from outside USA)
US Address:
625 State Route 3, Unit B, Plattsburgh, NY, USA, 12901
(Mail coming from USA)
~~~~~


-----Original Message-----
From: Stefan Karlsson [mailto:stefan@mirrorgate.se]
Sent: Wednesday, August 27, 2003 9:34 PM
To: oyehia@matrox.com
Subject: HWDM SDK ?

Is there a HardWareDisplacementMapping SDK out ? HAIG or what his name
on matrox forums told me so.. and i really need it, since you dont
expose your feutures via the DX9 standard way..


/stefan
Click to expand...

I guess this says it all.. They promiss to deliver a dx9 card, and they dont even plan making dx9 drivers, and they dont have any hw demos that works that shows of adaptive tesselation (displacement mapping can easily be done in software) and takes half a year to answer that they dont plan to make dx9 drivers...

For all of you with parhelia and wants to use it for 3d or so, i suggest you ask for cash refund.. I have, they havent replied yet tho..


I think this is by far worse then cheating in benchmarks what do you think?

ps. i have always prefered matrox before, just becauset hey havent been lying half as much as the other graphiccaardsvendors.. but i guess i will have to try out an ati now :( ds.
 
I don't think they promised any such thing as a 'DX9 Card'. The Parhelia is obviously only a DX8 board with *some* features that are at the DX9 level, namely the Vertex Shaders.
 
cellarboy said:
I don't think they promised any such thing as a 'DX9 Card'. The Parhelia is obviously only a DX8 board with *some* features that are at the DX9 level, namely the Vertex Shaders.
Click to expand...

well, there are really no dx9 cards out there, but they announced theese new stunning feutures, that would be exposed via dx9.. but they dont even plan on making drivers for dx9..

meaning, you cant use the feutures... do they really exist?
 
Haig said that nothing has been finalized yet, but I'm sure there will be one out now that DX9 games are starting to pop up. Supposedly they've had DX9 drivers in internal betas for a while now, and if you want it faster email a request to sales. (Every email helps)
 
keegdsb said:
Haig said that nothing has been finalized yet, but I'm sure there will be one out now that DX9 games are starting to pop up. Supposedly they've had DX9 drivers in internal betas for a while now, and if you want it faster email a request to sales. (Every email helps)
Click to expand...

you mean i should email sales when i ask for technical questions? makes no sense.

haig also tells me there is a sdk for using the hwdm feutuers.. but devrel tells me there are none.. they also state in a public interview , that haigh himelf links to, but still they refuse to confirm it exists... it makes no sense to me as a developer, usually card vendors really wants people to use their feutures, it makes them *sell* cards... this is why i really wonder if there is any of theese feutures.
 
stefandxm said:
keegdsb said:
Haig said that nothing has been finalized yet, but I'm sure there will be one out now that DX9 games are starting to pop up. Supposedly they've had DX9 drivers in internal betas for a while now, and if you want it faster email a request to sales. (Every email helps)
Click to expand...

you mean i should email sales when i ask for technical questions? makes no sense.

haig also tells me there is a sdk for using the hwdm feutuers.. but devrel tells me there are none.. they also state in a public interview , that haigh himelf links to, but still they refuse to confirm it exists... it makes no sense to me as a developer, usually card vendors really wants people to use their feutures, it makes them *sell* cards... this is why i really wonder if there is any of theese feutures.
Click to expand...
Yes, email sales for feature requests. Usually a guy named Dennis will respond and forward them to the driver team.
 
a friend of mine would like me to state .. for you people that doesnt understand what this is all about:

how can you release a card, and after one year, having NOT exposed your feutures via drivers? dx9 drivers doesnt *that* long to make..

and read what he says:
"we don't PLAN to develop dx9 driver..."

i dont think how anyone can really defend matrox, until they have released demos exposing their feutures, preferly opensource.. since emulating displacementmapping in software is a piece of cake.

i feel robbed :)
 
keegdsb said:
Yes, email sales for feature requests. Usually a guy named Dennis will respond and forward them to the driver team.
Click to expand...

Ehm, they dont plan making dx9 drivers.. meaning they probably dont even have a team for dx9... what dont you understand? Should their opengldrivers developers do this?

ps. all opengl software i run with parhelia with latest drivers crashes on swapbuffers() and not just crash.. they freeze up the system to.. xp says its matrox parhelia 128mb that crashed the system.. hey, i dont think the driver teams at matrox really does a shit :) ds.
 
Stefandxm: hmmh... let me guess... IF matrox would deliver DX9 drivers with DX9 DM enabled, it would make you very happy, even if there wouldn't be any software using it?

Sad but true, Matrox is alone with their way of displacement mapping. No one else supports it, plus the amount of sold Parhelias doesn't help situation either: there's very few users able to use Adaptive tesselated Displacement maps, if someone would use that feature in game. :cry:

another sad but most likely true: Matrox won't be making any gaming products in near future. their way is towards products like P650 and P750 are. :cry: They just can't afford it. IF parhelia would have been something it was planned and IF it would have came in time, situation could be different. But Parhelia turned out to be one giant nightmare to company that had already some troubles. :cry:

so, one player less...
 
stefandxm said:
Ehm, they dont plan making dx9 drivers.. meaning they probably dont even have a team for dx9... what dont you understand? Should their opengldrivers developers do this?

ps. all opengl software i run with parhelia with latest drivers crashes on swapbuffers() and not just crash.. they freeze up the system to.. xp says its matrox parhelia 128mb that crashed the system.. hey, i dont think the driver teams at matrox really does a shit :) ds.
Click to expand...

I am suprised that they still have D3D and OpenGL ICD included on the drivers... situation on driver developing has been said to be very bad.
 
Nappe1 said:
Stefandxm: hmmh... let me guess... IF matrox would deliver DX9 drivers with DX9 DM enabled, it would make you very happy, even if there wouldn't be any software using it?
Click to expand...

i want it because i have plan for own software that will use it. the reason why i bought the card. i expect to get what i buy, its not a very cheap card either you know.

Nappe1 said:
Sad but true, Matrox is alone with their way of displacement mapping. No one else supports it, plus the amount of sold Parhelias doesn't help situation either: there's very few users able to use Adaptive tesselated Displacement maps, if someone would use that feature in game.
Click to expand...

its not a big deal to implement in a game, and it would fix up lots of stuff.. as i said, i acctually planned to support this in many of my own productions, but matrox fucked up. and lies. iam mad. (dot).
 
I can see why this indifference towards the simplest of requests for exposure of this functionality in the hardware.

Here's a few facts:

1. Most of us here propably don't have Parhelia512 based graphics accelerator, so we simply don't CARE - but we reply anyway, right?

2. Matrox Parhelia512 obviously has this feature in their hardware or mechanism to implement it in their drivers, or otherwise expose the functionality otherwise they wouldn't have gone to the trouble of making pre-launch presentations explaining how the features work, videos of the feature in practise and so on

3. The cards based on this chip have now been out, what, over a year and still these features are not possible to harness.. question arises how these presentations were implemented- they are fake, or, drivers exist but are not released - if so, question arises why

I would acquire a card, if I knew the features were possible to use.. I am a developer myself and want experience in all aspects of DirectX and OpenGL programming. It's a passion and my profession ; it's what I do for living. But it's over a year and nothing is heard of these features.

Next generation of ATI and NV chips propably have the vertex Sampler2D (atleast 2D samplers for vertices), which means it's possible to implement the displacement in the GPU in efficient way by simply modulating the displacement map even animate the system. ATI atleast have even in their current products adaptive tesselation, this paired with vertex samplers gives us power to use the GPU internal bandwidth in productive way.. to finally maximize the vertex shader array with meaningful data, the N-FORM tesselation, sorry my french, is a bit lame.. it makes objects *rounder*, but we actually want more *detail* .. atleast I know I do, as a developer.

Anyway, you guys who diss Stefan only because he's not very good at expressing his Developer Feelings, should be ashamed and think a bit before you post the rubbish I have read through.

Mailing to SALES? WTF is that? That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard. Developer Relations are ones to contact, like Omar, who is a very generous and generally very knowledgeable bloke. I am just personally sorry that these new features aren't available yet, but I don't hold it as weapon against Matrox. I just would wish the feature would be at MY desktop and that *I* would be using it. Obviously I don't give a fuck what's already out in the market.

It would just augment rendering pipeline I have.. it would just be extra renderpath, but v. efficient one at that, assuming this is actually done inside the GPU. Maybe the next generation Matrox, ATI and nVidia cards finally allow to use this kind of programmability.

DirectX 9 SDK already has hints what the VS 3.0 specs contain.. it's a hint what the hardware will be doing, in general, when these products hit the market or atleast developers hands...

Thanks.
 
I haven't tried to diss Stefan, and I want DX9 drivers too. ;)

We've been told by Haig to email sales for this request, sales responded and forwarded information to the driver teams. I thought I would just share this information here.

Haig has also said that there was a way with some SDK they have to use DM with DX8. I have no idea where this SDK is located, though.
 
SeppoCityMarket: just joo, olet sitten tosi uskottava tuon nimimerkin takana vai? :) oikeen uuden tunnuksen teit ihan vaan tuota viestiä varten. :D tosi niinkun... miten sitä sanotaan?? ammattimaista, jeah.

noh, onhan tuo ainakin yksilöllinen... sääli että vitsi menee monelta ohi.


for english readers, if you can't figure out words before this, don't worry, it's not your computer... it really is something close to finish. ;)

stefandxm: well, I understand what you mean, but I am trying to say that Matrox really cutted their workforce during last 12 months and it is possible that they do not have resources anymore to implement DX9 features. (it is a bit miracle that they have been updating gaming features in any case. there was soem very strong rumours about deceasing whole D3D / OGL driver team in last january.)

so, I wouldn't say that they are cheating... (at least usually package as well as the websites / ads say that manufacturer can change things without notice and this is what has happened due to laid offs.)
 
Nappe, I can't believe what I've just read. You are criticizing my nickname? I translate your response, so that people get the context for my response.

"SeppoCityMarket: just joo, olet sitten tosi uskottava tuon nimimerkin takana vai? oikeen uuden tunnuksen teit ihan vaan tuota viestiä varten. tosi niinkun... miten sitä sanotaan?? ammattimaista, jeah. "

Translation:

"SeppoCitymarket: yeah, right, you are very convincing behind this name, eh? you even created new account just to post this message. like, yeah... how it's said?? professional, jeah.

well, atleast that's unique... too bad most will miss the joke."


Now, "Nappe1", I ask you, what's the joke you think there was implied? I was serious. I have developed graphics applications for various 3D vendors and game publishers and alike. I worked in this industry for seven years, before which it was my hobby.

I developed the engine for Matrox G200 technology demonstration, for instance and have worked with Matrox over the years. I respect Omar @ Matrox, he has been very kind and polite, always.

Here's the company I work at:

http://www.twilight3d.com

I'm not trolling or joking, but serious. Nappe1, if you have nothing constructive to say, don't say anything. Thank you for your attention.


Correction: ATI ofcourse has *static* tesselation, not *adaptive*, there's a world of difference there.
 
SeppoCityMarket: well, my apologies. and I didn't mean that way, but there has been some trolls and your nick looks like quickly invented one as well as the post (as being a first post) was pretty aggressive. so, again my apologies again and peace. :) I really didn't mean it as personal way. (that why all those smileys.)

anyways, nice to meet a guy behind G200 tech demo developing team. But because of things I have heard during last 12 months about Matrox, I must admit that I am worried. situation at Matrox is all but clear and a lot of rumours are flying around.
 
I hope they are just rumors.

Regarding the name, it is quickly made-up, I never use same nickname in two places.. but I think it's a good one precisely because it is not so serious.

I see people going about using names like FlamingDeath, EthernalFlame, ThunderGod, etc. and I'm hoping they have similiar sense of humor..
 
SeppoCitymarket: well, I am hoping that too. Anyways, welcome to Beyond3D. :) As being a new one, ( though, I don't know how long you have been lurking, which seems to be very usual way to get involveld here. ;) ) you might want to take a search with word "parhelia" and "Nappe1" as poster... it could explain quite bit some of the stuff I have been posting to this thread... and oh... you are propably coming from demo scene, right? if yes, dare I ask about your handle and group?

anyways, it is almost 2.00AM, so it is time to hit the sack.
 
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