MAG

[Shifty Geezer]

It's not "lone wolves" exactly. That's just been the most recent term which is being a bit generalised. The problem is trouble-makers, whatever they're about. A lot tend to play as 'lone wolves' even though that can be a productive part of a campaign.

 

[patsu]

Lone wolf rant

Ostepop, I am a lone wolf in FPS too. Perhaps, I should use terms like "bad team players", "griefers", or what RobertR1 implies, "stupid players" -P).

On the PS3 the biggest problem is that there is no standart ps3 headset that came with the ps3. The amount of mics are low, and thats a huge restriction, make some special pack that costs $15 more but has a headset

Yes, partially. Playstation's official headset will only be ready in October.

I don't think giving them headset will solve this problem fully though. MAG can easily bundle headsets with the game, like Warhawk. It could be many PS users just don't like to talk. Playing at late nights, I have Europeans and Asians yelling Yiddish at me too.

This is yet another area where MAG needs to resolve.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

This is yet another area where MAG needs to resolve.

I dunno if it exists already, but if not, somebody needs to invent a real time translator that recognizes voice, and can translate on the fly. Then put that tech into MAG.

I will hear everybody talking norwegian, and you will hear everybody talking whatever languague you desire

 

[Tap In]

I agree that lone wolf is not accurate for this discussion at least in my mind.

I also go off on my own and the number of asshats I have encountered over the years has got me to the point that I have more or less disconnected my Mics. I do however work as a teammate even without voice com and work toward the objective and read the other players and their moves and anticipate needs.

I help to win even though I play "alone". The other thing that makes that better is games like CoD4 and even more so BF:BC use a lot of in game CPU audible cues. "Over there, sniper" or "I need a medic" when a players health deteriorates. It's like having an auto voice for a lot of the activities that need attention.

 

[Cornsnake]

Those cues are indeed a good idea. But some players don't understand or ignore them. I've had teammates runaway from my medkits straight into enemy fire.

This doing things alone playing style only works well against an unorganised enemy. A properly organised team should easily be able to stop you if your teamed up with noobs. But if your playing against noobs you should easily be able to exploit their usual behaviour patterns. In Battlefield BC the defending team will usually stay in their old base after they lost it, to try and make some easy kills from people run towards the new objectives. But if your in a tank and drive towards the next gold crates immediately, you find that you can blow up both of them without anyone trying to stop you. But this way of playing gets old soon. I rather lose against some proper competition with good team backing me up, than playing like this.

 

[patsu]

Perhaps this is why MAG is a Zipper project. Their (huge) Socom fan base are synergistic with the MAG user base (They talk, cooperate and fight together in English or otherwise). I have not played a single Socom game, but I heard avid fans take the game very seriously.

I might drop in someday to star as a cannon fodder.

 

[Scott_Arm]

I might drop in someday to star as a cannon fodder.

One of these games should invent a cannon fodder class, for people like us. Somewhat crappy gun so the class can't be abused. Slightly faster move speed. Quicker respawn timer. If you have one of those flag capturing modes like in Day of Defeat, then the cannon fodder class captures the flags a little quicker. The ability to jump on and smother grenades

 

[Shifty Geezer]

I don't think giving them headset will solve this problem fully though. MAG can easily bundle headsets with the game, like Warhawk.

The download option for Warhawk must have severely limited headset adoption. It's also annoying that there's no noise cancellation whatsoever on the PSEye mic, with terrible audio feedback on people using that. Array of mics? Whatever for?! Nintendo's announcement of a Community Mic was a bit laughable at first, but if they actually have a system that elliminates feedback in all titles, it'll actually be a big step up and enable community chat.

 

[patsu]

Many people have Bluetooth cellphone headsets, or USB ones to play with. Once the official Playstation headset is out, Sony can also offer headset bundling/rebate/discount for PSN games as well as Blu-ray SKUs. In general, I don't see availability as a big problem.

I know a lot of people will talk over the net even to strangers. I just don't know if the number is big enough to guarantee a "pleasant" MAG experience every time (griefer issues aside). I'd rather the developer cater to the silent players by introducing gestures and canned voices in-game.

As for echo cancellation for PS Eye, I think the logic needs to be in software since they kept the PS Eye cost low. They will need to come up with relatively sophisticated adaptive echo cancellation because the distance between the PS Eye and the user varies greatly (unlike a headset). The alternative is to give the user a slider UI to control the echo cancellation. Hopefully we will see it someday.

 

[Acert93]

For issues facing MAG one need only look at Battlefield 2 (PC). The game has 64 player support, game size dependant map sizes, ingame chat, as well as squads and commanders. The gameplay is multi-objective driven as well in addition to a rank/unlock system that rewards players and a punish system for deviants. DICE did a lot to encourage teamwork and cohesion in the gameplay without forcing/limiting a gamer's experience.

I know a lot here don't do PC FPS, but a couple hours on 64 player BF2 servers will give you a general idea of how some of the suggestions people are talking about work/don't work as well as the trials facing a game with 4 times as many players.

Coordination & Cooperation are the minority, even in the PC world. Toss in logistical issues of the value of lives, the "involved" feeling (i.e. guarding an unengaged outpost in a massive map... or traveling 60 seconds on foot to only die), and so forth are essential.

I like the idea of these big games, but they have been tried with a fair number of failures. Sony waited a while to announce this, and it is ambitious (high risks involved) so my guess is they feel they have something substantial to offer in regards to these issues. You don't advert a 256 player game without first testing to see if it is feasible and fun.

 

[patsu]

Sony waited a while to announce this, and it is ambitious (high risks involved) so my guess is they feel they have something substantial to offer in regards to these issues. You don't advert a 256 player game without first testing to see if it is feasible and fun.

Yes, the issues and failed measures are pretty much known after BF2 and Planetside.

How does BF2 penalize griefers/deviants ?

 

[Cheezdoodles]

Many people have Bluetooth cellphone headsets, or USB ones to play with. Once the official Playstation headset is out, Sony can also offer headset bundling/rebate/discount for PSN games as well as Blu-ray SKUs. In general, I don't see availability as a big problem.

Some people have bluetooth cellphone headsets, its far from the norm as most good phones today comes with a normal wired headset packed in.

The problem is not that you cannot buy a headset, the problem is that its not within the box when you buy it. Few bother to buy one. However many eventually talk into one if its inside the box.

 

[Cheezdoodles]

How does BF2 penalize griefers/deviants ?

If i understand greifers correctly, (if its the same as the mmo term), then they dont penalize greifers.

Why should they? Camping an enemy base is an effective defence. If your team cannot handle that, you suck, to put it simply.

Even spawn campers are not particularly hard to deal with,they are most often stationary targets, all it takes is some creativity.

 

[Cornsnake]

I think most gamers aren't aware that almost very bluetooth headset will work with PS3. They probably think that need to buy an official PS3 headset. Including one standard with the PS3 would be the best way to go.

 

[Chris123234]

There is a lot of circle jerking group speak about some utopian military game where you get to either boss people around or happily follow orders. Put simply, you wont be able to make everyone play exactly how you want and it would be suicide for the game if they did everything I've read suggested in here.

Personally, I don't always feel like being to one to strategize or follow orders. Sometimes I just want to wander off and do my own thing, as I'm sure everyone does at times. Listening to some of you get all giddy and hopeful about your brilliant ideas, like killing someone if they get too far from the squad leader or having one person in charge of handing out medals, is amusing. While some of you are probably happy to wait out a 256 man battle because you were the unlucky guy to get capped first, I'm sure most of the people playing this game will enjoy whatever more sensible design decisions are taken.

Anyways, here's to hoping the game is actually fun.

If i understand greifers correctly, (if its the same as the mmo term), then they dont penalize greifers.

Why should they? Camping an enemy base is an effective defence. If your team cannot handle that, you suck, to put it simply.

Even spawn campers are not particularly hard to deal with,they are most often stationary targets, all it takes is some creativity.

That's one of the funniest things I've ever read. Considering I used to be able to completely shut down the opposing team in games like Desert Combat, from the other side of the map even.

 

[obonicus]

Yes, the issues and failed measures are pretty much known after BF2 and Planetside.

How does BF2 penalize griefers/deviants ?

It depends what you mean by griefer. There's nothing to stop people from base camping, but that's not really griefing. What CAN ruin a BF2 game are TKers who abuse many of the vehicle rules -- just see how myg0t rages a BF2 server.

There is, or was, no real TK punishment for say, just wounding teammates, or driving a jeep up to allies and jumping out the last minute, so that the empty vehicle kills them. For regular TKing you'd get a choice: 'punish' or 'forgive'. Enough punishing and you'd get kicked from the server for a short while. Back when I played, though, it was considered very impolite to punish accidental TKers.

Especially since BF2 is a game with tons and tons of explosions: with a stupid team a commander could be kicked out of the game in a single artillery strike (alternately, a stupid commander wouldn't last long).

But TKing wasn't even a big problem. The big problem really was stupidity; people taking the more powerful vehicles when they really didn't know what they were doing. People refusing to ever, ever defend because waiting around is boring. Half the team playing as snipers, because snipers are cool. People who thought that killing was a measure of efficiency, or just trying to farm badges/rank/stats.

 

[Skrying]

If i understand greifers correctly, (if its the same as the mmo term), then they dont penalize greifers.

Why should they? Camping an enemy base is an effective defence. If your team cannot handle that, you suck, to put it simply.

Even spawn campers are not particularly hard to deal with,they are most often stationary targets, all it takes is some creativity.

A griefer can be anyone who plays the game in a rather unfair way. Exploiting, not doing the objective, camping so they only bring up their K/D ratio but not help the team, these can all be forms of griefing. Camping is really rather lame unless the game supports a type of gameplay that suggests defensive style. Spawn camping is even more lame, especially in a large open map where a tandem of smart campers can beat an entire map. But as obonicus said the biggest issue in BF2 was vehicle stealing or someone blowing up your teams vehicles.

 

[patsu]

Some people have bluetooth cellphone headsets, its far from the norm as most good phones today comes with a normal wired headset packed in.

The problem is not that you cannot buy a headset, the problem is that its not within the box when you buy it. Few bother to buy one. However many eventually talk into one if its inside the box.

I checked cellphone headset penetration in US. Gartner estimated it at less than 10% in March 2007. So it would seem the lack of headsets could be a significant factor for "silent players" on PSN. On top of that, I have encountered headset enabled players who do not speak or communicate well.

In that case, I'd be curious about MAG's team communication mechanism. I don't think voice comm alone is sufficient anyway.

There is a lot of circle jerking group speak about some utopian military game where you get to either boss people around or happily follow orders. Put simply, you wont be able to make everyone play exactly how you want and it would be suicide for the game if they did everything I've read suggested in here.

Personally, I don't always feel like being to one to strategize or follow orders. Sometimes I just want to wander off and do my own thing, as I'm sure everyone does at times. Listening to some of you get all giddy and hopeful about your brilliant ideas, like killing someone if they get too far from the squad leader or having one person in charge of handing out medals, is amusing. While some of you are probably happy to wait out a 256 man battle because you were the unlucky guy to get capped first, I'm sure most of the people playing this game will enjoy whatever more sensible design decisions are taken.

I think you missed the point. People are just relaying their (bad) experiences with similar games, ask questions and trying to guess how MAG could work. I don't see people boasting about their brilliant ideas.

I also happen to think that even with the penalties in place, people will find their ways around. e.g., By cutting players' ammo supply if they wander too far off, I know I will just run in and out of the group to replenish my ammo
but hopefully my action means more to the team as a whole.

As long as people who abuse the game don't get to spoil it for others, I think 256 player game can be largely fun (as opposed to occassionally fun in other similar games).

Anyways, here's to hoping the game is actually fun.

Touché !

 

[wco81]

I have a USB headset that I got for PS2. When I got it, I chatted a bit but most of the time, not interested.

There were some people who play sports games who will quit if they get no response back.

USB headsets are suppose to work on some PS3 games but I didn't see how to do it and really didn't try to figure it out.

For team games with big map, yes it makes sense to communicate but the audio on some of the voices are horrible and hard to even understand.

 

[mister slim]

One system could be player ratings, like eBay. If players could rep other players good or bad, that would offer a minimum filter system - 'Only 3 star or higher players on this server.' It would have been nice in Warhawk to label that team-killing wazzock a trouble maker so people could avoid him!

Maybe just build a thumbs up/thumbs down mechanism into the matchmaking? After you finish a round there's a quick vote on your squadmates. Make it so the squad commander has to have a high percentage of thumbs up. Since the commander is relatively trusted, they can be given some additional controls over the rest of the squad, like the ability to dole out specialized weapons and gear. If the commander only has one sniper rifle to give out, that's that.

I am not a game designer. But I think the game has to be clear who they want to serve and state it upfront. I'd explore in the area of stopping ammo flow for people who wander too far off and discount them from the game stats (since they may not contribute to game objectives anyway).

In terms of stats, choosing the right information would be key. In MAG, why not avoid comparing the player to the rest of the server. Rank the squads as a whole, not the squad members. Player stats would only be compared to their squadmates, which would give players more info when rating their squad after a round and promote a little competitiveness.