Let's talk FSAA on next generation consoles ok ?

[London Geezer]

cool sweetie no one's saying u're wrong.... just a bit radical.... calling a 60" HDTV mainstream sounds a bit radical, even in mighty USA... granted, in 7 years time things will be different, but do we really want diffferent versions of games for US and EU market? i know u dont really care, but i do. i rather have a console which supports what REALLY is mainstream as best as it can. THEN and only then, have options to enable lucky people to use 720p and such. i personally have a 720p capable screen but i wouldnt want games to rely on that. i rather have 480p (or intrlaced) with tons of anti aliasing AND an option for 720p so that everyone's happy...
u know i think we're saying the same thing.
i'm absolutely confident that next gen hardware will have AA on all the time. all i'm worried about is this HDTV mess in Europe.. :?

 

[covermye]

cool sweetie no one's saying u're wrong.... just a bit radical.... calling a 60" HDTV mainstream sounds a bit radical, even in mighty USA...

I don't remember calling a 60" HDTV mainstream. Smaller sized projection TV's, though, are... as well as nicely sized 32"-40" direct view TV sets. Prices are currently falling like a rock. It's only common sense to expect that the trend of larger sets will continue. I don't know how much plainer or how many more ways to say this...

granted, in 7 years time things will be different, but do we really want diffferent versions of games for US and EU market? i know u dont really care, but i do. i rather have a console which supports what REALLY is mainstream as best as it can. THEN and only then, have options to enable lucky people to use 720p and such. i personally have a 720p capable screen but i wouldnt want games to rely on that.

I woudln't want games to RELY on that either. Picking the resolution should be pretty much game-independent as long as the platform allows for you to pick a resolution... I'm merely saying that the next gen PLATFORMS need to have enough memory (current offerings sure don't) to allow for high levels of AA and/or higher resolutions. Like I stated more than once already, minimum of 480P with 4X FSAA is what I'm expecting. I can't imagine, in this industry where technology is STILL doubling about every 18 months, playing games at only 480P 6 or 7 years from now though... I just don't see that...

i rather have 480p (or intrlaced) with tons of anti aliasing AND an option for 720p so that everyone's happy...

Isn't that what I've been saying?!?

u know i think we're saying the same thing.
i'm absolutely confident that next gen hardware will have AA on all the time. all i'm worried about is this HDTV mess in Europe..

Yes, we are saying the same thing pretty much. Just understand that if a platform has the memory storage space and bandwidth (and fillrate) to perform 480P with substantial FSAA levels, doing higher resolutions (720P)is pretty much a piece of cake as well. Why the heck WOULDN'T it be offered then? That's all I'm saying...

 

[MfA]

HDTV in europe isnt really that much of a mess, it is just that without government giving special treatment to HDTV suppliers the extra spectrum and equipment costs doesnt make it economically viable at the moment ... or at least will force it into a niche.

To be quite honest, both from a democratic and from a market point of view the US HDTV policy has very questionable justification. Having HDTV forced upon the populous definitely would have some benefits for us freaks ... but I dont think Id be cheering it having read up on the matter a bit.

 

[DemoCoder]

It's no different than any of the other airwave standards that were forced on consumers, or for that matter, standards imposed on cars, et al. And the way Europe hands out licenses to ensure that GSM beats any other standards.


I find the broadcast networks totally irrelevent. I haven't watched broadcast TV in almost ten years, relying exclusively on cable and satellite.

The only relevant standard for me is what format DirectTV decides to pipe through their satellites.

 

[MfA]

I fail to see the relevance ... just saying that the standard situation is not really a mess. It is trivial for the market to support HDTV, the standard puts no hurdles on their path. Customers just arent there.

 

[Tahir2]

HDTV in the UK = DEAD

And no, I don't know why, but it might have something to do with the UK Populace being stingy when it comes to spending on these kind of goodies in general.

 

[DemoCoder]

Well, you're claiming that HDTV was forced on us, I am only pointing out that every previous broadcast television standard was also government mandated. A large fraction of Americans now get hundreds of channels from digital cable or satellite, so whatever the FCC decides about broadcast video is mostly irrelevent, especially to people who own expensive TVs who are much more likely to have satellite or digital cable.



HDTV might not be big in Europe, but the price hear is coming into the range of middle class consumers. 60" rear projection televisions are down to the $2000 range now. I just looked at a 42" inch plasma the other day that was $3599. This is about the same price people were paying for 36" WEGAs just a few years ago.

The actual broadcast format is irrelevent. All you need is a 16:9 screen with enough resolution and scanrate. You can buy tuners or software-decode any format they come up with. The prerequisite is getting the display first.

Frankly, I DON'T WANT a tuner built into my TV set. It presumes that I want broadcast TV. Just stick a DVI or component video port on it, and let me by external decoders for whatever format I receive content in.

Toshiba is selling a 40" rear projection HDTV for $800 now and a 34" tube version for $1400. In another year, I expect these prices to fall up to 50% putting them into the range of lower end middle class families.

HDTV, like DVD, CD players, etc is on the verge of falling into critical mass. Growth in the DVD market was slow for years, then after a few DVD/movie studio deals, and the Matrix DVD, there was a groundswell.

The prices are now right, the content is starting to ramp up, I expect another year or two before it breaks through.

 

[Tahir2]

OK another reason might be that HDTV in the UK is ridiculously priced compared to Japan and the US.

 

[London Geezer]

i don't know, i mean EVERYTHING here in the UK is ridiculously overpriced, i mean the PS2 cost £299 at launch compared to $299 in the US... and a pound is almost double the value of the dollar so u make ur calculations...
i'm not really bothered, i cant really afford a big HDTV anyway so i'm playing my pro-scan games on my LCD display (thank god for BLAZE)...
i am confident though that in the next generation u guys in the US will get all the goodies like 720p and 1080i and we'll be stuck with what pure LUCK will give us...
i could be playing Soul Calibur2 in 720p on an Xbox if someone up there didnt decide to cut pro-scan from the console. came with 480p with the rest of the Xbox games... same for GC...
so i'm stuck playing The Getaway or Primal or Guilty Gear X2 or Burnout2 and a couple of other games in Pro-scan on ps2... and only because i bought a ***THIRD PARTY*** VGA Adapter.... i mean it's just ridiculous...
i thought the situation with 60Hz was bad but this is really getting on my nerves...

 

[zurich]

i don't know, i mean EVERYTHING here in the UK is ridiculously overpriced, i mean the PS2 cost £299 at launch compared to $299 in the US... and a pound is almost double the value of the dollar so u make ur calculations...
i'm not really bothered, i cant really afford a big HDTV anyway so i'm playing my pro-scan games on my LCD display (thank god for BLAZE)...
i am confident though that in the next generation u guys in the US will get all the goodies like 720p and 1080i and we'll be stuck with what pure LUCK will give us...
i could be playing Soul Calibur2 in 720p on an Xbox if someone up there didnt decide to cut pro-scan from the console. came with 480p with the rest of the Xbox games... same for GC...
so i'm stuck playing The Getaway or Primal or Guilty Gear X2 or Burnout2 and a couple of other games in Pro-scan on ps2... and only because i bought a ***THIRD PARTY*** VGA Adapter.... i mean it's just ridiculous...
i thought the situation with 60Hz was bad but this is really getting on my nerves...

I don't understand why people in the UK/Europe who are horribly bitter over their PAL/ProScan/whatever situation just don't buy an NTSC Xbox/PS2/GC/whatever, and import all their games (letting you play in HDTV res on a monitor). Its marginally more expensive anyways, since you'd be buying cheaper American games with the Brit pound.. but whatever!

 

[Tahir2]

So we have to jump through hoops and you get everything by default?

Hey, he ain't bitter, he's my brother.

 

[jvd]

Sony has some 40-50 inch hdtvs for 1500 - 2500 usd . Thats not to expensive. You can get a 27inch for about 500-600 bucks . By 2007 i'd expect the 27inchs to be under 500

Really fsaa is a must. At least 4x fsaa comparable to ati's method . I'd really like to see 8x fsaa but i don't know if the ram is going to be enough. Esp if they plan on pushing hundreds of millions of polygons .

 

[Paul]

If not a billion or two..

 

[London Geezer]

I don't understand why people in the UK/Europe who are horribly bitter over their PAL/ProScan/whatever situation just don't buy an NTSC Xbox/PS2/GC/whatever, and import all their games (letting you play in HDTV res on a monitor). Its marginally more expensive anyways, since you'd be buying cheaper American games with the Brit pound.. but whatever!

ONCE AGAIN.... i know u CAN do that (wouldnt know WHY do it, since it takes ages to get items delivered from abroad) but we r talking about simple plug and play stuff that Joe Smith can just buy and enjoy....
i know u CAN mod ur xbox/GC and play import games but that's not what we r talking about here...
1) import games are not sold anywhere in the shops
2) delivery times are ridiculous (from my experience)
3) people want to go to the shops and buy things just like they do now for the PAL versions
4) the whole *import* thing is SOOOO geekie
5) if people with plasma displays are few in the UK, then think how many there are who ALSO have an Xbox or GC, modded or imported...
6) at least Sony has done something right
7) why did they cut pro-scan from Xbox and GC but NOT from PS2?????? (this is really beginning to bug me)
8 ) yes i'm VERY bitter on the subject, how would u feel if u were taking it up the a** everytime a new piece of technology comes out. HDTV has been out FOR YEARS everywhere BUT in europe.
9) it IS ridiculous to think that european people are less prone to technological advancement. if there is ONE reason for it is ONLY because of the treatment we have endured thorugh the years (see OVERPRICING, DELAYING and such)
10) i could go on for hours but i think u have had enough by now

 

[zurich]

I don't understand why people in the UK/Europe who are horribly bitter over their PAL/ProScan/whatever situation just don't buy an NTSC Xbox/PS2/GC/whatever, and import all their games (letting you play in HDTV res on a monitor). Its marginally more expensive anyways, since you'd be buying cheaper American games with the Brit pound.. but whatever!

ONCE AGAIN.... i know u CAN do that (wouldnt know WHY do it, since it takes ages to get items delivered from abroad) but we r talking about simple plug and play stuff that Joe Smith can just buy and enjoy....
i know u CAN mod ur xbox/GC and play import games but that's not what we r talking about here...
1) import games are not sold anywhere in the shops
2) delivery times are ridiculous (from my experience)
3) people want to go to the shops and buy things just like they do now for the PAL versions
4) the whole *import* thing is SOOOO geekie
5) if people with plasma displays are few in the UK, then think how many there are who ALSO have an Xbox or GC, modded or imported...
6) at least Sony has done something right
7) why did they cut pro-scan from Xbox and GC but NOT from PS2?????? (this is really beginning to bug me)
8 ) yes i'm VERY bitter on the subject, how would u feel if u were taking it up the a** everytime a new piece of technology comes out. HDTV has been out FOR YEARS everywhere BUT in europe.
9) it IS ridiculous to think that european people are less prone to technological advancement. if there is ONE reason for it is ONLY because of the treatment we have endured thorugh the years (see OVERPRICING, DELAYING and such)
10) i could go on for hours but i think u have had enough by now

'
Well you can't change the market forces by bitching, but you can work around it

IE: MP and Zelda and other hit games were delayed 2-3 months for the Euro market, if you just imported them from NA the day the came out here, you'd still have 'em months before everyone else