Is the iPhone held back by Samsung's progress?

[Lazy8s]

Beside being completely out of the context of clock speed, workload conditions, and a comparable measure when comparing the triangle rate of different GPUs, armchair analyses always assume mobile GPUs are clocked at a speed that at least remotely approaches the desktop. Nothing is further from the truth.

First generation OpenGL ES 1.1 devices were clocked closer to 50 MHz, with speeds reaching around 83 MHz in popular platforms like OMAP2 and Apple's aggressive 103 MHz in the first iPhone platform. Later iPod Touches and systems outside of the mobile market, like Sega Sammy's Aurora arcade device, would of course push ES 1.1 parts higher.

65 nm enabled ES 2.0 GPUs to clock around 110 MHz - 133 MHz, with Apple once again aggressive at 150 MHz.

With 45 nm and the like, expect around 200 MHz and above and even a high performance mode for tablets and PMPs at 400 MHz, but these ideas of 200 MHz ES 1.1 parts and 600 MHz 2.0 GPUs are just too far from the reality of phones.

 

[darkblu]

According to that spec-sheet the Samsung Galaxy S has 512 MB of L2 cache

Well, according to wikipedia, the A4 has 640KB of L2, but at least it's kilobytes.

65 nm enabled ES 2.0 GPUs to clock around 110 MHz - 133 MHz, with Apple once again aggressive at 150 MHz.

FWIW, there's at least one tablet-class 65nm SoC that has an ES2 GPU at 166MHz - iMX51x.

 

[Ailuros]

SAMSUNG Galaxy Tab: http://www.reghardware.com/2010/09/02/samsung_galaxy_tab_vodafone/

http://www.imgtec.com/News/Release/index.asp?NewsID=573

 

[Mike11]

Any news on Samsung's 32nm or 28nm process that could be used for Apple's A4 successor? If it's gonna be used in Apple's next iPad (03/11?) then it has to be ready for mass production quite soon.

Globalfoundries seems to be on track with 28nm for ARM Cortex-A9 dual-cores:
http://www.engadget.com/2010/09/02/globalfoundries-takes-arm-cortex-a9-into-28nm-land-looks-forwar/

 

[wco81]

Well you certainly hope Apple moves to Cortex A9 with the next major product revision.

With all the competition, they can't even be perceived as taking a breath.

 

[Mike11]

Well you certainly hope Apple moves to Cortex A9 with the next major product revision.

With all the competition, they can't even be perceived as taking a breath.

Well, Apple certainly has to improve all aspects of the next iPad. They can't just add or improve only one feature like only update the design (iPhone 3G) or just replace the SoC (iPhone 3GS). (One thing I'd really like to see but don't think will happen next year is a higher resolution screen. Not iPhone4 ppi, but double the current resolution would be nice. Too bad I don't really see 9.7" 2048x1536 IPS displays becoming affordable in the next 12 months.)

 

[Ailuros]

Well you certainly hope Apple moves to Cortex A9 with the next major product revision.

Samsung hasn't either yet and they are so far manufacturing the SoCs for Apple.

With all the competition, they can't even be perceived as taking a breath.

When it comes to sales amounts I don't see yet Apple to have to look over its shoulder. It's rather the rest that should worry that Apple doesn't gather an even bigger market-share eventually.

Well, Apple certainly has to improve all aspects of the next iPad. They can't just add or improve only one feature like only update the design (iPhone 3G) or just replace the SoC (iPhone 3GS). (One thing I'd really like to see but don't think will happen next year is a higher resolution screen. Not iPhone4 ppi, but double the current resolution would be nice. Too bad I don't really see 9.7" 2048x1536 IPS displays becoming affordable in the next 12 months.)

Apple has a mind of its own when it comes to things like that. The reason for any of their recent success in the embedded market is more due to the software package and marketing than anything else.

As for the huge jump in resolution well theoretically they could stick in such a thing in Q1 2011 high speced enough hw to give you even fluent 3D in 2048, but I wouldn't want then to read about endless complaints about too high power consumption and a too high price.

Why did the A4 SoC end up as it is today and why is the iPad cheaper than many expected such devices when it launched?

 

[Lazy8s]

Some of the recent retests and new additions to the rankings for GLBenchmark results are showing the sky has been the limit for Samsung's Galaxy S platform. Those phones are now jumping quite a bit ahead of the Tegra 2 netbooks.

The updates are only all showing on the Top 5 sidebar of the main page of the site -- glbenchmark.com -- while the full Results tab shows it somewhat differently.

 

[wco81]

Android is getting some momentum from the slew of high-end phones it's releasing throughout the year. There's a sense that they're pushing through hardware specs. at a much faster pace, even though a lot of the Android sales momentum comes from mid or lower end models too.

Apple doesn't tout the specs as much but every Apple device is going to be torn down and people are going to make comparisons. Certainly they should know that and that it influences buying decisions.

 

[Mike11]

Samsung hasn't either yet and they are so far manufacturing the SoCs for Apple.

AFAIK with the last generation Samsung was almost 6 months behind in terms of actual product that uses the SoC between Apple's A4 and Samsung's Hummingbird (iPad vs. Galaxy S).

As for the huge jump in resolution well theoretically they could stick in such a thing in Q1 2011 high speced enough hw to give you even fluent 3D in 2048, but I wouldn't want then to read about endless complaints about too high power consumption and a too high price.

The problem with the iPad ppi is that it's an iOS device and people switch back and forth between this and your iPhone 4 or iPod touch. Now that both small devices have retina displays and the OS looks very similar the difference in ppi becomes very noticeable. I know a lot of people who used to read a lot more (at least short) stuff on the iPad and now prefer the iPhone 4 because of it's quality, even though it has a much smaller screen.

 

[Ailuros]

AFAIK with the last generation Samsung was almost 6 months behind in terms of actual product that uses the SoC between Apple's A4 and Samsung's Hummingbird (iPad vs. Galaxy S).

Apart from any other possible reasons it's not exact same SoC either.

The problem with the iPad ppi is that it's an iOS device and people switch back and forth between this and your iPhone 4 or iPod touch. Now that both small devices have retina displays and the OS looks very similar the difference in ppi becomes very noticeable. I know a lot of people who used to read a lot more (at least short) stuff on the iPad and now prefer the iPhone 4 because of it's quality, even though it has a much smaller screen.

No disagreement there; it still doesn't change my original point that Apple tries to keep its devices as cost effective as possible and that comes inevitably with both advantages and disadvantages. The difference between 960*480 and 2048*1536 isn't exactly small.

Some of the recent retests and new additions to the rankings for GLBenchmark results are showing the sky has been the limit for Samsung's Galaxy S platform. Those phones are now jumping quite a bit ahead of the Tegra 2 netbooks.

The updates are only all showing on the Top 5 sidebar of the main page of the site -- glbenchmark.com -- while the full Results tab shows it somewhat differently.

There was obviously some problem that kept the Hummingbirds back; if you look alone at the Pro GPU Skinning results today they've nearly doubled (if not more). Texture and texture filter tests are still not where they should be, so I'd expect an even higher jump in the nearest future.

Apple doesn't tout the specs as much but every Apple device is going to be torn down and people are going to make comparisons. Certainly they should know that and that it influences buying decisions.

I know it isn't the first time I post that link but here's a teardown for a Hummingbird vs the competition: http://phandroid.com/2010/07/06/thi...processor-in-the-samsung-galaxy-s-is-awesome/

Plus there are tons of independent reviews on the web for different devices. On paper marketing specs can paint many pretty pictures, but you can't hide in the longrun from performance comparisons. It was always and it will always be "put up or shut up" hm? NV's Tegra2 SoC has dual A9 incorporated and is available today for integration, or even better is being integrated in devices as we speak. Add all the possible Tegra2 powered tablets up that might appear this year and let me know how the sales figures will look like against the iPad alone. By the time those devices will reach their momentum Apple and any other manufacturer will have the new bunch of devices released.

 

[Lazy8s]

The difference in that Quake 2 test is hilarious; the optimization is presumedly somewhat worse on that Evo, though not necessarily well optimized on either phone.

The 2.0 GLBenchmark test seems quite telling about the difference in real world performance from what I've seen reflected in actual Android applications.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl4p5JI0-gQ&sns=em

 

[Mike11]

Just an ARM1176-based application processor, but Samsung has to start somewhere with its 32nm low power HKMG process:

SAMSUNG Announces Engineering Sample of World's first Mobile Application Processor in 32nm High-K Metal Gate Low Power Logic Process
Taipei, Taiwan - September 7, 2010 : Samsung Electronics, Co., Ltd., a world leader in advanced semiconductor solutions, today announced that it will highlight an engineering sample of its application processor using its 32 nanometer (nm) low power High-K Metal Gate (HKMG) logic process in a demonstration at the seventh annual Samsung Mobile Solutions Forum held here in Taiwan at the Westin Taipei Hotel. Codenamed Saratoga, this new application processor was designed to provides a low power, high performance, and cost effective solution for next generation consumer electronic (CE) products such as personal navigation devices (PND), electronics dictionaries, and e-book readers.

"We announced, in June this year, the successful qualification of our 32nm HKMG low power logic process and design ecosystem," said Dr. Kwang-hyun Kim, senior vice president of System LSI Sales and Marketing, Samsung Electronics. "Saratoga is the world's first application processor that is implemented in this 32nm process which offers lower leakage current, higher performance, and higher gate density. We are excited to demonstrate such capability through this chip."

Likes its 45nm predecessor, S5P6440, the 32nm Saratoga application processor is based on an ARM1176™ CPU core. It features 2D graphics acceleration hardware that supports the OpenVG application programming interface (API) standard.

In addition to integrating peripherals and memory interface commonly used in many CE products to reduce BOM cost, Saratoga is also equipped with a mobile industry processor interface (MIPI) display serial interface (DSI) which minimizes the EMI and lowers the number of pins needed to connect with the display panel, greatly reducing design complexity and cost.