Im back! IBM too!

[Panajev2001a]

Just wanted to mention that Toshiba being the biggest semiconductor producer in Japan means very little. The most interesting developments in microprocessor technology comes from NEC. Making the most number of chips doesn't mean most talented. Their eDRAM is nice in that it's smaller than competing eDRAMs, however they sacrifice speed in the process.

I do not agree about your assesment about Toshiba and NEC, but it is normal for people to disagree.

Toshiba already has in plan to use for processors SOI CMOS for DRAM and bulk CMOS for logic ( mixed process ) and for the 45 nm node they have e-DRAM cells without the capacitor which cuts the size of the DRAM cell by a non trivial factor.

I agree that the smaller cell size might trade off in speed, but I do not think that it offset the issue much: ever thought that they targeted very high density for a reason ?

I doubt that NEC e-DRAM can clock so higher to off-set the benefits of >33 % smaller cell size that Sony and Toshiba's e-DRAM have in terms of bandwidth per cycle and amount of total e-DRAM on the chip.

Lower cell size does not always mean slower SRAM or DRAM cell.

 

[PC-Engine]

A plan is just a plan...

Hyping a plan ie 65nm doesn't mean they're more talented. In actuality, everyone will have 65nm capablilty by 2005. Even Intel hasn't talked about SOI plans...

All the major fab players will eventually have access to the same technology. There's no point in announcing the use of it unless it's exclusive.

 

[V3]

Their eDRAM is nice in that it's smaller than competing eDRAMs, however they sacrifice speed in the process.

eDRAM compensate its speed, by being able to use a really wide bus.

If they want speed, they should just concentrate on SRAM, and make that smaller.

 

[cthellis42]

Hyping a plan ie 65nm doesn't mean they're more talented. In actuality, everyone will have 65nm capablilty by 2005. Even Intel hasn't talked about SOI plans...

Exactly. Which is why the initial reason this post was made is just amusing in general.

Meanwhile, the proof of the chipping is in the fabbing. Hehe...

 

[PC-Engine]

Their eDRAM is nice in that it's smaller than competing eDRAMs, however they sacrifice speed in the process.

eDRAM compensate its speed, by being able to use a really wide bus.

If they want speed, they should just concentrate on SRAM, and make that smaller.

1T-SRAM-Q

Hyping a plan ie 65nm doesn't mean they're more talented. In actuality, everyone will have 65nm capablilty by 2005. Even Intel hasn't talked about SOI plans...

Exactly. Which is why the initial reason this post was made is just amusing in general.

Well Chap was just giving the S/T/I 65nm chest thumpers a dose of the their own medicine

 

[Panajev2001a]

A plan is just a plan...

Hyping a plan ie 65nm doesn't mean they're more talented. In actuality, everyone will have 65nm capablilty by 2005. Even Intel hasn't talked about SOI plans...

All the major fab players will eventually have access to the same technology. There's no point in announcing the use of it unless it's exclusive.

A plan is just a plan... dose of your own medicine... sorry to spoil the fun, but no it is not just a plan...

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2003_06/pr1301.htm

2003, working silicon and the DRAM is not expected until 45 nm is ready for the manufacturing lines down in late 2006-mid 2007 or so.

SOI can work, with the help of IBM we have seen AMD make it work and guess who licensed IBM's SOI technology and got lots of help from the same IBM ? Yes, SCE/Sony/SSNC... and guess who is the co-developer of Toshiba's 65 nm and 45 nm technology ? Yes, it is SCE/Sony/SSNC.

The fact still remains, for the purpose Sony needs ( CELL ), CMOS5 e-DRAM cells are better than NEC and the competition in general and this is what matters.

 

[cthellis42]

Well Chap was just giving the S/T/I 65nm chest thumpers a dose of the their own medicine

I detected much more of a "well, IBM won't have it rolling till 2005, so how could Sony/Toshiba POSSIBLY have it for PS3 if it is to be released end of 2005?" vibe to it.

Otherwise, people just like to talk about the tech. Each major fab will tend to have its strengths and weaknesses, and each major fab has 65nm as an obvious reality. People are apt to crow about the cooler/more-advantageous bits of fabbing tech, but I don't think anyone was turning 65nm into a sprint and saying it's the best thing since canned tuna on sliced bread!

 

[PC-Engine]

A plan is just a plan...

Hyping a plan ie 65nm doesn't mean they're more talented. In actuality, everyone will have 65nm capablilty by 2005. Even Intel hasn't talked about SOI plans...

All the major fab players will eventually have access to the same technology. There's no point in announcing the use of it unless it's exclusive.

A plan is just a plan... dose of your own medicine... sorry to spoil the fun, but no it is not just a plan...

http://www.toshiba.co.jp/about/press/2003_06/pr1301.htm

2003, working silicon and the DRAM is not expected until 45 nm is ready for the manufacturing lines down in late 2006-mid 2007 or so.

SOI can work, with the help of IBM we have seen AMD make it work and guess who licensed IBM's SOI technology and got lots of help from the same IBM ? Yes, SCE/Sony/SSNC... and guess who is the co-developer of Toshiba's 65 nm and 45 nm technology ? Yes, it is SCE/Sony/SSNC.

The fact still remains, for the purpose Sony needs ( CELL ), CMOS5 e-DRAM cells are better than NEC and the competition in general and this is what matters.

...and Intel still hasn't needed to resort to SOI so chest thumping it is pointless relative to the competition...

Talking about 45nm is just talk because there are no products NOW. In 3-4 years everyone will have 45nm too so what are you going to chest thump next 35nm???

Who cares what they plan in 2006/2007 because the competition will have access to the same technology...it's pointless...

 

[_phil_]

Intel just hit the Ppanic PR button ,or is it time for MS to reconsider next-gen business partnership ?

 

[Vince]

Well Chap was just giving the S/T/I 65nm chest thumpers a dose of the their own medicine

Blah! Blah! Blah Blah! The proof will be in the future, lets wait and compare what STI does with it compared to Intel....

 

[chapback]

Bzzzzzzt! Since Intel is more or less outta the running for nextgen consoles, it be STI vs whatca MS has and whatca Nintendo has.

 

[McFly]

Or you could say it's IBM vs. IBM vs. IBM. I'm pretty sure the winner will be ... IBM.

Fredi

 

[chapback]

NOT! IBM TBM KBM, it be the PS3/X2/N5 that be bringing me nextgen 3D!

But it be good, now we can agree to take a few steps back and be less hippy hoppy and wait for more direct revelations than going over some vague big yohayo talkie talk.

 

[London Geezer]

NOT! IBM TBM KBM, it be the PS3/X2/N5 that be bringing me nextgen 3D!

But it be good, now we can agree to take a few steps back and be less hippy hoppy and wait for more direct revelations than going over some vague big yohayo talkie talk.

Errrrmmmm.. if that meant "let's sit back and wait to see what happens", then that's what we've been trying to tell u all along.... u're the one who started it all with the hohoahahprocessorthingy and the (New Entry) yohayotalkietalk...

 

[chapback]

me? No way! The last thing i be doing is to go gaga over Sony dreamy dreams, and even all nextgen "greatness" 3D it might be.

I be doing what you said to be doing! Just advising the others, me good buddies, to take it easy with the vague talk.

 

[V3]

1T-SRAM-Q

Yup and that technology is at serious disadvantage compare the eDRAM and SRAM.

 

[London Geezer]

U know, sometimes i'm sure we would understand much more of what you're saying if you just wrote in your own language...

To stay on topic...

I said LOOOOOOOOOOONG ago that IBM would be the real winner in the next generation... The money they are going to make from being in all the next-gen consoles, the experience they're going to get from working side-by-side with all 3 the competitors, the name recognition they are going to achieve (as if they needed it)... Those are what i call clever guys...

 

[marconelly!]

NOT! IBM TBM KBM, it be the PS3/X2/N5 that be bringing me nextgen 3D!

I don't even understand where the 'chest thumping' is coming from now, except from your imagination. I'm not sure what is TBM and KBM supposed to mean, but if IBM is making CPU for both Nintendo and MS, and in part for Sony, I guess they will all have the same fabrication technology available. Actually, Sony will have it's own, as well as Toshiba's fabs available so it might have some advantage there, although I don't know much about the schedule for those.

 

[Paul]

Or you could say it's IBM vs. IBM vs. IBM.

Sorry to nitpick. But it's more like IBM vs IBM vs Sony and Toshiba. This is because they are developing the Broadband Engine themselves, although STI did develop the Cell architecture together and this is what BE is based off of.

 

[chapback]

Isnt IBM providing the Power4 to ST, just as MIPS with the Rsomething to ST back then?

shouldnt it be STI vs IBM/ATI/SiS vs ??? so far.


Marc,
sometimes it be clearer to see things across the road.