Heartbeat Sensor on Dualshock 5

[Deleted member 11852]

That's unfair on XBat's argument. $5 more GPU isn't going to make a meaningful difference - $5 of anything regards core hardware per unit isn't generally going to make a big difference, whereas $5 adding something that wouldn't otherwise be present is a huge difference in terms of hardware offering - if it never gets used though, that's a different matter.

Which is kind of the problem with doing something unique, given the vast majority of games are multiplatform so in terms of features and controls they're having to work to the lowest common denominator. I think this is why most multiplatform games, with a few exceptions, treat the DS4 touchpad as a single huge extra button. Some do allow the touchpad to scroll around the UI/map which is a really pleasant surprise when you stumble on these. KIllzone Shadow Fall used the touchpad and let you swipe to control the OWL (a combat UAV) and it worked really well.

Of course in terms of tech in a controller, it's not just the BOM cost for each controller, there was also the time/effort of R&D, time/effort of ongoing software API/stack cost maintenance and testing. Every hour spent on supporting a feature barely used is an hour lost of time spent on something else.

I don't want Microsoft or Sony to stop trying to innovate but when has any unique differentiation with a controller every been universally adopted and lauded for being better? I can't think of any and Sony have tried of lot of things with augmenting input on four generations of home PlayStation console and 2 portables.

 

[PSman1700]

I don't want Microsoft or Sony to stop trying to innovate but when has any unique differentiation with a controller every been universally adopted and lauded for being better?

Completely agree with you, but comon, a heartrate sensor?

 

[Aaron Elfassy]

I've repasted my ps4 pro twice with Arctic 5 and fully cleaned out the components. The noise levels are comparable to the stock paste. The console will reach the same heat as soon as the components reach their saturation point. I'm positive the consoles are volted too high

Every amd pc component I've owned can be safely undervolted as they are very conservative at stock values. Hopefully Sony follows Microsoft with the Hovis method to apply only what's needed to the chip

 

[PSman1700]

I've repasted my ps4 pro twice with Arctic 5 and fully cleaned out the components. The noise levels are comparable to the stock paste. The console will reach the same heat as soon as the components reach their saturation point. I'm positive the consoles are volted too high

Every amd pc component I've owned can be safely undervolted as they are very conservative at stock values. Hopefully Sony follows Microsoft with the Hovis method to apply only what's needed to the chip

Generally with undervolting could work for many chips, but not all. For example i have three i7 920's, all D0 bought same date. One can be undervolted to as low as 1.1v @stock speeds, and even light overclocks, another needs 1.225v to be stable @stock. I have a fourth (C0) that clocks without problems to 3.6ghz undervolted. All have been tried on the same mb, memory etc.
They can't gurant lower voltages, Sony probably has a standard volt for all their chips/cpu's. It must be a CPU problem indeed, DOOM 2016 makes my base ps4 extremely noisy, as do most 60fps games. Fortnite, or even being in a menu. While playing HZD or detroit, the machine isn't as loud, 60fps games are more demanding to the system.

 

[Xbat]

when has any unique differentiation with a controller every been universally adopted and lauded for being better?

Analog stick then dual analog sticks.
If I remember correctly the N64 was the first to have a analog stick and I think they were first with a rumble pack?

@Shifty Geezer
Funnily enough I would also rather have better cooling for quieter cooling and possibly magnetic filters like my PC case has

 

[egoless]

I don't want Microsoft or Sony to stop trying to innovate but when has any unique differentiation with a controller every been universally adopted and lauded for being better? I can't think of any

Any of these qualify?

SNES 6 button pad forcing Sega to release a pad with 6 buttons to match? Or the SNES 4 face button layout everybody still uses to this day? Or the N64 rumble pack forcing everyone to update their controllers with rumble to this day? Or Nintendo motion controls forcing... Hmm, there seems to be a pattern here when things get universally accepted and adopted. If any of that meets the criteria of the quoted text of course.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Analog stick then dual analog sticks.

The original PlayStation Dual Analog controller was badly supported on the original PlatStation, the whole dual-analogue controls did not take off until these were standard on multiple consoles.

If I remember correctly the N64 was the first to have a analog stick and I think they were first with a rumble pack?

I believe this is true, but rumble or not does not enable/disable new input - this is feedback and because it's not standard you can't build a game which relies on its presence. The DS4 also tried using a new form a feedback with the colour bar and again, all it really resulted in was people complaining about the reflection of the colour bar in their TVs.

Any of these qualify? SNES 6 button pad forcing Sega to release a pad with 6 buttons to match? Or the SNES 4 face button layout everybody still uses to this day?

How popular were those implementations in cross-platform games on consoles without those?

Or the N64 rumble pack forcing everyone to update their controllers with rumble to this day?

See above, and you have overlooked PlayStation 3 SixAxis controllers which did not have rumble.

Or Nintendo motion controls forcing... Hmm, there seems to be a pattern here when things get universally accepted and adopted. If any of that meets the criteria of the quoted text of course.

Nintendo also released a conventional 'Pro' controller, why would they do this if motion controls were sufficient?

 

[Xbat]

The original PlayStation Dual Analog controller was badly supported on the original PlatStation, the whole dual-analogue controls did not take off until these were standard on multiple consoles.

But even though it wasn't well supported on PS1 it became standard for PS2 and following consoles.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

$5 more on cooling could make a huge difference on entire system performance.

Hell, I'd be more than happy if they were to spend a few pennies on a removable dust filter that is easy to clean and maintain.

Regards,
SB

 

[Deleted member 11852]

But even though it wasn't well supported on PS1 it became standard for PS2 and following consoles.

It did but I think what helped that adoption was that both the GameCube and Xbox also offered dual-analogue stick controllers as standard. If PS2 had been an outlier, I think many multiplayer games would not have supported it well - much like the original PlayStaton Analogue Controller and DualShock controller.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Dual sticks was inevitable as the only real way to play free-look FPSes on a controller. If only one console had them, they'd have cornered a large part of the market, and that's why all consoles included dual-sticks as standard because they all saw it was a necessary evolution.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Dual sticks was inevitable as the only real way to play free-look FPSes on a controller. If only one console had them, they'd have cornered a large part of the market, and that's why all consoles included dual-sticks as standard because they all saw it was a necessary evolution.

The Dreamcast controller says hello.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

The Dreamcast controller says hello.

All successful consoles then, made by forward-thinking companies who saw where things were headed.

 

[Globalisateur]

Any of these qualify?

SNES 6 button pad forcing Sega to release a pad with 6 buttons to match? Or the SNES 4 face button layout everybody still uses to this day? Or the N64 rumble pack forcing everyone to update their controllers with rumble to this day? Or Nintendo motion controls forcing... Hmm, there seems to be a pattern here when things get universally accepted and adopted. If any of that meets the criteria of the quoted text of course.

Hey, Nintendo motion controllers on Wii have rather high input lag and were not accurate enough. It was a bad implementation but it doesn't mean the concept is bad. Motion controls on DS4 are mostly excellent and very useful in some games (GTS, Dreams).

 

[Deleted member 11852]

All successful consoles then, made by forward-thinking companies who saw where things were headed.

Which is my point. This type of controller, which existed in two iterations the previous generation on PlayStation, did not gain widespread adoption in games until all consoles offered this as minimum. Which means doing something unique with user input will garner at best lukewarm support. Force-feedback controllers, PS Eye/Cameras, Kinect 1 and 2, PS3's SixAxis, DS4's touchpad, Switch's 'HD' Rumble...

 

[orangpelupa]

, Switch's 'HD' Rumble.

Nintendo themselves even backtracked on that! haha

btw yeah you are on point i think. Even when PS4 and Switch have gyro, only exclusives use them. Multiplats still need to accomodate xbox that got no gyro.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Which is my point. This type of controller, which existed in two iterations the previous generation on PlayStation, did not gain widespread adoption in games until all consoles offered this as minimum. Which means doing something unique with user input will garner at best lukewarm support. Force-feedback controllers, PS Eye/Cameras, Kinect 1 and 2, PS3's SixAxis, DS4's touchpad, Switch's 'HD' Rumble...

That's already been raised by others including myself. However, I think there's a qualitative difference for dual-sticks that means rather than being a long-shot that only gained traction when it was ubiquitous, it was always going to be an evolution that was going to happen, as the only way to give enough input to the users. That contrasts with other ideas like cameras that, even when fairly ubiquitous, don't see much traction and can eventually be dropped. So even if MS and Nintendo duplicated Sixaxis input, games still wouldn't use it.

That makes the barrier to adoption not just availability, but utility. However, that's even rarer now due to cross-platform titles not pursuing limited-availability inputs - none of the multiplat shooters support DS4 motion controls AFAIK (well, not even the first party exclusives really support it!).

 

[Deleted member 11852]

That's already been raised by others including myself.

Apologies, I missed this. Can you link?

However, I think there's a qualitative difference for dual-sticks that means rather than being a long-shot that only gained traction when it was ubiquitous, it was always going to be an evolution that was going to happen, as the only way to give enough input to the users.

How are you differentiating innovations which are are 'obvious' from those which aren't? Because this looks like an assessment that can only be made with the benefit of hindsight. I am reminded of a bunch of common form factors for modern devices like iPhone, MacBook Air and the modern Macbook, as well as the original Atari 2600 joystick. History tends to ignore who introduced a design first, like Apple's iPhone was not the first all-screen mobile phone, but it was the first device that hugely popularised this design.

That contrasts with other ideas like cameras that, even when fairly ubiquitous, don't see much traction and can eventually be dropped. So even if MS and Nintendo duplicated Sixaxis input, games still wouldn't use it.

SixAxis was widely perceived to be Sony's response to Wiimote which Nintendo revealed eight moths earlier. Kinect came much later. All failed as popularising methods of gameplay input relative to the common controller functionality. Whilst 'utility' (usefulness) is definitely a factor so is the ubiquity of functionality, which has been my argument all along.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Apologies, I missed this. Can you link?

Just follow the thread from post 13 onwards. A platform-exclusive feature struggles to gain use is one of the themes.

How are you differentiating innovations which are are 'obvious' from those which aren't?

By looking at the problem of inputs and their possible solutions. Hindsight allows us to see the evolutionary waypoints that were inevitable. Firstly, a button and some form of directional input to control the two degrees of freedom of the TV screen. Then more buttons for more options. Then an input system to provide 3+ degrees of freedom where the existing direction+face buttons wasn't adequate for 3D games. There are only so many solutions to that problem and cost and complexity and the tech available meant dual-stick was the only realistic solution for a handheld controller.

Whilst 'utility' (usefulness) is definitely a factor so is the ubiquity of functionality, which has been my argument all along.

Yes, there's two factors. The heart-rate sensors here are being largely rejected as a good idea for including in DS5 for both reasons - 1) limited platform availability meaning no adoption in games, and 2) no obvious utility driving adoption. If 2) was really strong, it'd be used to add to games on PS5 to increase those games' value and shift more units, and the rival platforms would move to include them (although patents preventing that would only limit adoption further!) until they became a de facto standard like dual-sticks and shoulder buttons.

The next all-round tech advance will be underside paddles, improving the ergonomics of input accessibility (don't have to move thumbs off sticks to use buttons), although I imagine these staying a high-end controller niche as buttons are still serviceable, gives a cheaper base controller, and paddles gives a USP to selling additional high-margin hardware.

The most obvious scope for a real game-changer is motion controls, with many valuable additions to the experience in theory, but the lack of progress in the software field for these suggests they'll stay dormant a lot longer. Sony's library hasn't shown MS they need to include them, and games haven't shown motion controls are a valuable addition. I do also wonder if inputs are starting to fossilise into their current form? Dual-sticks had a learning curve, but we all adapted. Introducing something new like motion controls adds a new learning curve, and if gamers reject them for what they know, it's not worth devs persevering. Warhawk had some nice motion controls, but sticks could do the same work for most players; it was just a 'feel' thing in the end.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

By looking at the problem of inputs and their possible solutions. Hindsight allows us to see the evolutionary waypoints that were inevitable. Firstly, a button and some form of directional input to control the two degrees of freedom of the TV screen. Then more buttons for more options. Then an input system to provide 3+ degrees of freedom where the existing direction+face buttons wasn't adequate for 3D games. There are only so many solutions to that problem and cost and complexity and the tech available meant dual-stick was the only realistic solution for a handheld controller.

More buttons for more complex controls has been a barrier since the1980s. And third person games in open environments have been a thing for as long yet dual-stick controls a thing on home console controllers until - I believe - the Dual Analogue controller for PlayStation. Sometimes, things are only obvious in hindsight, i.e when the obvious has been presented. Like how most smartphones follow LG's Prada all screen smartphone, how most ultra light laptops following the design philosophy of the MacBook Air and so on.

Yes, there's two factors. The heart-rate sensors here are being largely rejected as a good idea for including in DS5 for both reasons - 1) limited platform availability meaning no adoption in games, and 2) no obvious utility driving adoption. If 2) was really strong, it'd be used to add to games on PS5 to increase those games' value and shift more units, and the rival platforms would move to include them (although patents preventing that would only limit adoption further!) until they became a de facto standard like dual-sticks and shoulder buttons.

Let me just clarify that I don't think that heart-rate sensors are a bad idea, I just don't think it will get used except for exclusives and some niche experiences. This goes back to my position that doing anything too unique, with can't be done on other platforms, is going to limit adoption.