HD-DVD-R getting more press

[Sean*O]

This is a link from the Yahoo front page

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050608/ap_on_hi_te/japan_toshiba_dvds

 

[jvd]

well whats his face from evil dead was promoting the movie coming to hd-dvd

 

[Sean*O]

There are some interesting bits in that write-up. I don't know if it is just inaccurate information, but this is the first I have heard of a HD-DVD with a 45 Gig capacity. That would put it just 5 Gigs shy of Blu-Ray, and allow manufacturers to use existing DVD fabrication facilities with slight mods.

Might be a battle for Sony after all?

Blu-ray have more capacity with 50 gigabytes compared to 45 gigabytes for HD-DVD read-only disks, but proponents of HD-DVD say their format is cheaper to make because the production method is similar to current DVDs.

They also mention new recordable HD-DVD-R with 15 Gigs of space.

 

[jvd]

thsi is a tri layer disc that toshiba announced a few weeks ago and then sony reanounced a 100 gig 4 layer disc

 

[Sean*O]

LOL!

That's Sony for you. We are double them!!

So Sony got a 4 layer disc to work before they got a 3 layer one fuctioning? Or did they already reach that point previously?

 

[jvd]

LOL!

That's Sony for you. We are double them!!

So Sony got a 4 layer disc to work before they got a 3 layer one fuctioning? Or did they already reach that point previously?

i think for both of them the tri layer and quad layer discs are lab things . They are just blowing smoke up each others behind

 

[mckmas8808]

No the way I read it Sony is completly skipping the three, five, six, and 7 layer sections. They only planned on doing 1, 2, 4, and 8 layers. I think I seen them saying they are currently working on a 8 layer 200 gig disc which I think is suppose to be done around the year 2007 or 2008. I think.

 

[jvd]

No the way I read it Sony is completly skipping the three, five, six, and 7 layer sections. They only planned on doing 1, 2, 4, and 8 layers. I think I seen them saying they are currently working on a 8 layer 200 gig disc which I think is suppose to be done around the year 2007 or 2008. I think.

I'm not to sure of that , they haven't produced a dual layer disc yet from what i understand . Though i'm sure others know more

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Again, what has this to do with consoles?

 

[Carl B]

Hey now since blu-ray gets to tag along for PS3, HD-DVD deserves it's fair shot in the console forum.

 

[Sean*O]

Apart from that this could have an impact on Sony's use of Blu Ray in the PS3.

Much has already been made about the PS3 being marketed as a device to watch HD movies on as much as it is being marketed as a game console.

I'm not so sure it's wise for Sony to drag their #1 cash cow into this format war. They could release stand alone Blu Ray players into the marketplace to do battle with HD-DVD, and take the money they are spending on BRD in PS3 and add in a HDD instead.

The more news is released about HD-DVD, the more dangerous it looks for Sony to bet the house on Blu Ray, especially when they could take those costs and give gamers something more useful for gaming. Maybe offer Blu-Ray equipped PS3's down the line as an option if they become the eventual, clear format war winner.

 

[mckmas8808]

The more news is released about HD-DVD, the more dangerous it looks for Sony to bet the house on Blu Ray, especially when they could take those costs and give gamers something more useful for gaming.

I disagree with half of this quote. This news does not hurt Blu-ray at all. Have you read any of the news that Blu-ray has made lately. Let me show ya!.

BenQ demonstrated its BW1000 prototype blue-laser DVD burner at the recently concluded Computex 2005 and the company plans to start volume producing the product in the first or second quarter of 2006, depending on how quickly the market for blue-laser products develops.

The BW1000 features writing speeds of 2x for Blu-ray single-layer and DL (single-sided double-layer) discs, 12x for DVD+R/-R, 4x for DVD+R/-R DL, 4x for DVD+RW/-RW, 32x for CD-R and 24x for CD-RW, as well as reading speeds of 2x for Blu-ray, 12x for DVD and 32x for CD, according to BenQ.

This shows that Blu-ray recorders will be coming out when the PS3 is released for single and dual layered discs.

TDK has developed a prototype recordable Blu-ray Disc with revolutionary 100GB capacity. By far the most advanced optical media ever developed, the prototype 100GB bare Blu-ray Disc doubles both the capacity and recording speed of the current Blu-ray Disc specification. Blu-ray’s industry-leading capacity means a single disc can store a vast assortment of content without making quality compromises. A single, prototype 100GB Blu-ray Disc can store approximately 9 hours (recorded @ 24Mbps) of high definition video.

Even though it's at a weak 24 Mbps they have achieved a working prototype.

Recently unveiled in Tokyo, Japan, TDK’s new prototype Blu-ray Disc records data at 72 megabits per second, double the 36Mbps rate of the current Blu-ray Disc specification. The increased speed has been accomplished through recent advancements in disc recording layer formulations.

This 72 megabits per second is the 2X version. Most people think that this is going into the PS3. It might or it might not. The following news could be what we will receive.

Additionally, TDK’s new inorganic film formulation provides absolute stability with narrow track pitches and high recording densities, such as those employed by the Blu-ray Disc format. The formulation’s optical qualities are so stable that TDK has already been able to achieve 6x (216Mbps) recording speed in the lab with blue laser media.

This is what jvd has been talking about. Unlike the previous advances that are totally proven and working this is only in the lab. I really really wonder if this 6X drive can make it into the PS3. What do you guys think about this?

Broad acceptance and adoption of Blu-ray Disc has led to the maturation of the complete disc manufacturing process. Having multiple companies involved with each step has contributed to process improvements and cost efficiencies that bring the long-term cost of manufacturing BD-ROM discs in line with current DVD replication costs.

This is obvious self-explainable.

In film bonding, the development of new extruded film technology by several leaders in the chemical industry has significantly reduced film costs. A new film product from Teijin reduces the cost of the cover film to one-third of the cost of conventional polycarbonate materials, and Degussa, a new BDA member company, projects a single-digit Euro cents per-disc cost at launch. In addition to these advances in film materials, Lintec Corporation’s hard coat material and film bonding process makes the film bonding method very efficient.

With the improvements in cover-layer technology, and in preparation for mass production of BD-ROM discs, Singulus Technologies, a leading manufacturer of replication equipment, has developed replication systems that will target cycle times towards three seconds. Yields are expected to exceed 90 % in a full-scale, mass production environment.

Sony has developed equipment to streamline the disc mastering process by reducing the eleven steps currently used in DVD mastering to five for BD-ROM. This mastering process, Phase Transition Mastering (PTM), requires as little as one-fifth of the space required for DVD mastering and the equipment can be configured to allow mastering of both BD-ROM and DVD-ROM on a single system. The first two commercial machines are for Technicolor and Cinram for Q2, 2005 installation.

“Fox is pleased to see the increasing number of technology companies and materials vendors committing to Blu-ray implementation, which is reducing costs to promising levels through technological breakthroughs and innovation,†said Danny Kaye, SVP Technology and Research Strategy at Twentieth Century Fox. “We look forward to continued technological progress along with developments in content protection.â€

In addition to ramping up for mass production of the 50GB discs that will be available at format launch, Blu-ray has begun work to ensure that the format continues to grow as high-definition technology evolves. Blu-ray companies have successfully demonstrated 200GB discs in a laboratory environment and are poised to further expand the format’s capacity as needs dictate."

Again just like jvd has said only in the labs, but it is possible. In the future 200gig disc will be sold.


But let me say this I do 100% agree with you on Sony shipping a HDD out of the box. I think this is a must. So do it Sony!!

Links to Blu-ray information came from:

http://www.discwrite.co.uk/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=298


http://www.linuxelectrons.com/article.php/20050608030752538

http://www.digitimes.com/news/a2005060384102.html

 

[jvd]

I don't really see them shipping 200 gig discs . I can see the 100gigs but i really think the 200gig discs will be to expensive and at that point they will already be moving on to the next thing

 

[Sean*O]

Interesting info mckmas8808,

I have always been a supporter of Blu-Ray, mostly because it offered the most storage space so we would not have to compromise on quality by over compression of HD content.

But if they can now get 45Gig on a HD-DVD that seems to be ample storage space for HD video & audio for pre-recorded movies. Also, it seems that Blu-Ray will require a paradigm shift for an entire industry that is just hitting its stride with DVD.

If existing DVD replication equipment could be easily modified to create HD-DVDs, I have to think that will be a lot more compelling from a business standpoint for most companies, especially since anything in excess of 50Gigs per disc seems like it would offer diminishing returns when you talk about the main market for these discs, Home Theater/entertainment.

I think that HD-DVD may not have been taken seriously before because of its (relative) lack of storage space when compared to Blu-Ray for the job it is intended to do. If that perception changes, combined with cost savings in manufacturing & production, it could be trouble for Sony.

Just an opinion, and like I said, I have always supported Blu-Ray, but they seem to be losing the edge if there is any truth to this new HD-DVD news.

 

[Npl]

But if they can now get 45Gig on a HD-DVD that seems to be ample storage space for HD video & audio for pre-recorded movies. Also, it seems that Blu-Ray will require a paradigm shift for an entire industry that is just hitting its stride with DVD.

For movies it might be fine, but multiple layers have disadvantages like beeing more prone to reading errors on the inner layers, changing layers takes time, so random access on PC- or Console Games are at disadvantage.
The less layers the better, in pathological Cases you could of course compare a n-Layer HD-DVD to a n-Layer BR and still gain nothing,

If existing DVD replication equipment could be easily modified to create HD-DVDs, I have to think that will be a lot more compelling from a business standpoint for most companies, especially since anything in excess of 50Gigs per disc seems like it would offer diminishing returns when you talk about the main market for these discs, Home Theater/entertainment.

The demand for storage wont stop increasing, when CDs came out I figured i could store all my Amiga-Stuff on a single CD, why would I need more? Now look where we are today.
BR is a step further than HD-DVD, and changing equipment might pay back in the long run if it really occupies less space as stated

 

[mckmas8808]

BR is a step further than HD-DVD, and changing equipment might pay back in the long run if it really occupies less space as stated

And the pay back come hurt if nobody is actually buying HD-DVD units. If 10 million plus people get introduced to a new high def. media player in one year thats a huge plus for that chosen media. Everybody knows that more Blu-ray players will be sold than HD-DVD players. And thats just from the PS3 sales not even considering the normal Blu-ray players.

Movie companies will really enjoy the bigger installed fan base that Blu-ray will have. And think about what the average PS3 buyer is and what they buy. We buy videogames, big screen tvs, surround sound systems, computers with lots of HDD space and with high CPU speed, and lots of movies. Blu-ray has the perfect trojan horse and we will buy the movies. Why? Because we almost have no choice. If the videogame system comes with the drive and we have a HDTV, why not buy the movie on Blu-ray.

 

[PARANOiA]

This is fantastic news for everybody except Sony. Why? No matter which format "wins", the consumer gets great data volume.

It's bad news for Sony since the "x% bigger" arguement is cut back considerably. I'm not going to complain about this since Sony's profit margin isn't my biggest priority

 

[sonycowboy]

Interesting info mckmas8808,

I have always been a supporter of Blu-Ray, mostly because it offered the most storage space so we would not have to compromise on quality by over compression of HD content.

But if they can now get 45Gig on a HD-DVD that seems to be ample storage space for HD video & audio for pre-recorded movies. Also, it seems that Blu-Ray will require a paradigm shift for an entire industry that is just hitting its stride with DVD.

If existing DVD replication equipment could be easily modified to create HD-DVDs, I have to think that will be a lot more compelling from a business standpoint for most companies, especially since anything in excess of 50Gigs per disc seems like it would offer diminishing returns when you talk about the main market for these discs, Home Theater/entertainment.

I think that HD-DVD may not have been taken seriously before because of its (relative) lack of storage space when compared to Blu-Ray for the job it is intended to do. If that perception changes, combined with cost savings in manufacturing & production, it could be trouble for Sony.

Just an opinion, and like I said, I have always supported Blu-Ray, but they seem to be losing the edge if there is any truth to this new HD-DVD news.

Well, it's not quite so cut and dry. There seems to be some very serious obstacles to the 3 layer production as there appear to be quality issues with the 3 layer media and they are having trouble. In addition, manufacturing plants would have to upgrade anyway to be able to support it. Which completely kills the advantage of going with HD-DVD.

In any case, the war continues and if neither side blinks, neither format will be able to gain acceptance and they will both lose.

 

[PC-Engine]

There seems to be some very serious obstacles to the 3 layer production as there appear to be quality issues with the 3 layer media and they are having trouble. In addition, manufacturing plants would have to upgrade anyway to be able to support it. Which completely kills the advantage of going with HD-DVD.

Where is your proof to back up this claim? The TL HD DVD is very similar to making a DVD-14. Memory Tech has already said they're confident it will not be a problem.

 

[Ty]

Memory Tech has already said they're confident it will not be a problem.

So how is what Memory Tech says not "pure BS" as you claimed the other PR from Sony or whoever was?