Game Sound for Blu-Ray: Does the DTS spec apply?

[twotonfld]

One of my happiest tech moments of the last year was when it was announced that DTS would be a requirement of the BR spec for movies. Then it hit me - does the same spec apply to games? While I sure hope it does, I can't answer it myself. So, I'm putting it out to everyone here.

Are games held to the same spec requirements of BR movies?

Does this mean the sweet sound of raw DTS data will be pumped from my speakers?

What BR specs may be left out of gaming?

Are you excited to have access to the extra space? For sound? For more?

Thanks! 8)

 

[PC-Engine]

One of my happiest tech moments of the last year was when it was announced that DTS would be a requirement of the BR spec for movies. Then it hit me - does the same spec apply to games? While I sure hope it does, I can't answer it myself. So, I'm putting it out to everyone here.

Are games held to the same spec requirements of BR movies?

Does this mean the sweet sound of raw DTS data will be pumped from my speakers?

What BR specs may be left out of gaming?

Are you excited to have access to the extra space? For sound? For more?

Thanks! 8)

Both X360 and PS3 will be able to output dynamic positional audio, whether it's DD or DTS is unclear at this point.

 

[London Geezer]

Seeing how even little old PS2 can do realtime DTS in some games, i don't see what's stopping next gen consoles to do the same, besides obvious potential licensing issues.

I think DD will be the most used, like it is today. Not sure why to be honest since 99% of DD sound systems are also capable of DTS but well...

 

[twotonfld]

Both X360 and PS3 will be able to output dynamic positional audio, whether it's DD or DTS is unclear at this point.

That much I figured, but I much pefer the quality of DTS over DD - it's sharper and more consistent due to the lower compression. The presence of the sound is just that much better - DD occasionally feels lopped off.

Regarding the PS2's use of DTS - wasn't that due to not requiring the horsepower to reencode the stream on output (not costly on XBox due to the HW implemntation)? Is it safe to say that more could be pushed out of a game using DTS since less processor time may be devoted to sound processing (now that neither system has a spearate HW sound solution)?

 

[PC-Engine]

AFAIK realtime DTS takes about the same processing requirements as realtime DD.

 

[London Geezer]

To be honest, i never really understood whether the "better sound" of DTS is a psychological thing for me. I mean, i know it should sound better, so maybe it's just affecting me in that sense, cause most people can't really tell the difference. I haven't done a side by side comparison for a long time i must say.

For all i know, it might even be my sound system that "prefers" DTS.

I think that for games, the difference will be negligible, since we really won't have much time to check the difference between DTS and DD while playing.

 

[PC-Engine]

To be honest, i never really understood whether the "better sound" of DTS is a psychological thing for me. I mean, i know it should sound better, so maybe it's just affecting me in that sense, cause most people can't really tell the difference. I haven't done a side by side comparison for a long time i must say.

For all i know, it might even be my sound system that "prefers" DTS.

I think that for games, the difference will be negligible, since we really won't have much time to check the difference between DTS and DD while playing.

Same here. It has been shown that DTS uses a different equalization curve than DD hence it sounding different and louder. This obviously doesn't mean it sounds better. For example think of a flat frequency response curve vs one of those "Rock, Jazz, Classical" preset curves. Which curve sounds betterr? Same thing between DD and DTS. The bitrate thing is all psychological IMO since they both use different algorithms. It's like comparing MP3 at 128kbps vs OGG at the same bitrate.

 

[twotonfld]

Don't get me wrong the best of both DTS and DD are fantastic and often incomparable - that said, I find that DTS does - in general - better accentuate the subtleties of a mix. And, while the applied EQ curve may alter the perception of the listener - I don't think all of the DTS "magic" exists in there. It's not simply comparing MP3 to OGG at the same bit rate. That would imply that DTS, which in practice, tends to be ~3.25 times greater in bitrate is just simply a poor compression algortihm. I would think that to be an overstatement.

Even a hobbiest audio engineer or even a digital photographer will tell you that you cannot create something from nothing. And, I refuse to believe that if you're compressing something with a lossy algorithm to 3.25 times smaller than something else - you're apt to be losing something that the other hasn't lost - even if Dolby's compression is vastly more efficient.

I agree that the majority of listenrs won't hear the difference after fiddling with the volume control, but in a best to the best comparison, I fid that DTS tends to produce sharper and more airy highs than DD.

That said - this discussion has somewhat strayed from the question. That being does the DTS support part of the Blu-Ray spec apply to games as well?

 

[PC-Engine]

That being does the DTS support part of the Blu-Ray spec apply to games as well?

I don't think the DTS support indicates all games will be required to use DTS. I mean why would 2D games need it? I'm sure there will be 2D games on all next generation consoles. Even 3D games like Viewtiful Joe will not have a reason to use DTS.

 

[AlNom]

I don't think the DTS support indicates all games will be required to use DTS. I mean why would 2D games need it? I'm sure there will be 2D games on all next generation consoles. Even 3D games like Viewtiful Joe will not have a reason to use DTS.

2D games that scroll vertically can use surround sound, so long as objects passing from top of the screen to the bottom (past the player entity) have their own sounds.


... not that I'm referring to those emulated games or anything in particular like that.

 

[Dural]

DTS used in almost every dvd release today is half bitrate and IMO can sound worse than DD. I really don't see the point of using half bitrate, or full for that matter, DTS since it would use so much more space compared to DD that could be used for something else.

 

[Reznor007]

Actually since PS3 has HDMI I would prefer that they support MLP as the surround sound codec(optionally). MLP is the lossless 5.1 compression used on DVD-A.

 

[twotonfld]

Just because a game is 2D doesn't mean its sound has to be. This is one of my problems with current game audio - more focus needs to be placed on its artistic use for the sake of making things truly immersive.

For a 2D example - let's consider the original Super Mario Brothers. One place where 3D sound can be used in this 2D world is when mario jumps and smashes a brick. Now consider where a player actually is in a 2D world - they are always placed in the middle of the action. Those smashed bricks do not only go up and down on a plane - some may go in front or in back of Mario - some to his sides as well. Why not make the sound envelop the player.

That's using the old 2D in which there wasn't the 3D element modern 2D games have. There's plenty of opportunity for surround sound's use with the way modern 2D games are done. It's just often ignored - which is too bad because - if you've ever been to universal stuidos and been to that Murder She Wrote sfx/foley show - you know how imprtant sound is to putting someone into the environment.

 

[twotonfld]

Actually since PS3 has HDMI I would prefer that they support MLP as the surround sound codec(optionally). MLP is the lossless 5.1 compression used on DVD-A.

I wouldn't complain about MLP - but I'm not sure how realistic it is to process.

 

[PC-Engine]

I'm just saying that it points to DTS not being a requirement for games, since some games will simply not need it.

 

[twotonfld]

As said in my previous post - if you think it's not needed, you're not thinking about how to use sound correctly. This is why the industry needs more audio engineers.

 

[PC-Engine]

You asked the question if DTS as required for BR means it's also required for games. I said no, because the reasons point in that direction. There is zero point in having Tetris with surround sound beyond gimmicks.

 

[twotonfld]

First things first -DTS doesn't always indicate surround sound - you can use it in a manner to simply output the front LR channels (similar to the use on the PS2 with 4.1 solutions).

There is zero point in having Tetris with surround sound beyond gimmicks

Those "gimmicks" are important - even if it is only for the musical soundtrack or ambient sound. Besides - this is next gen - thus to make a next gen Tetris - something needs to move forward - if not the visuals or mechanics, what can that easily be. Sound is the potential answer!

Case in point, anyone who's played Lumines can see applications for 3D sound in that game (although I think it even tries to implement it currently through mixing techniques - its use of varying volume sound effects like resonant sweeps).

Why would you contend that furthing the user experience is a bad thing?

 

[PC-Engine]

First things first -DTS doesn't always indicate surround sound - you can use it in a manner to simply output the front LR channels (similar to the use on the PS2 with 4.1 solutions).

Why go through the trouble if it's only stereo?

 

[London Geezer]

First things first -DTS doesn't always indicate surround sound - you can use it in a manner to simply output the front LR channels (similar to the use on the PS2 with 4.1 solutions).

Why go through the trouble if it's only stereo?

Maybe it's not "trouble"... Maybe the DTS kit gives the devs more tools to do whatever they want, i don't know, but there might be reasons.

In the end, all next gen games will have at least 5.1 DD - or at least that's what MS said.

Not sure where 2D games stand on that, though i'm sure they can gimick it out even there.