Game Development versus Corporate Development Career Paths *spawn*

[iroboto]

It would be much more interesting and exciting to hear that they’re going to build new studios and games rather than try and buy current ones.

Limited talent pools makes it extremely challenging to build a AAA studio from scratch. And if you are looking to build for cheap you’re not going to shop in expensive cities. This is more an economics thing than anything else. I’d like to see more AAA studios in Canada

 

[DrJay24]

Limited talent pools makes it extremely challenging to build a AAA studio from scratch. And if you are looking to build for cheap you’re not going to shop in expensive cities. This is more an economics thing than anything else. I’d like to see more AAA studios in Canada

One of the largest and richest software companies would have trouble getting talent? You could foster a good work environment, encourage employee ideas and take some risks... Not do things like they did to Coalition and make them dump their game to churn out more sequels. Trust your talent and make something original.

 

[BRiT]

One of the largest and richest software companies would have trouble getting talent? You could foster a good work environment, encourage employee ideas and take some risks... Not do things like they did to Coalition and make them dump their game to churn out more sequels. Trust your talent and make something original.

It might be more about finding a cohesive idea to produce into a game than the actual engineering effort required to create the building blocks? They might be a bit shy on taking sizable risks considering they took large ones to become a TV Studio when that vision failed completely.

 

[iroboto]

One of the largest and richest software companies would have trouble getting talent? You could foster a good work environment, encourage employee ideas and take some risks... Not do things like they did to Coalition and make them dump their game to churn out more sequels. Trust your talent and make something original.

I could be wrong. But AAA studios compete for some high end skills but a lot of other industries are willing to pay more and have better working environments than AAA dev. Thus the only people working in AAA really love making games.

I guess when I mean talent, I mean available talent. Otherwise paying money to steal employees from other studios is more or less the same as buying the studio.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I could be wrong. But AAA studios compete for some high end skills but a lot of other industries are willing to pay more and have better working environments than AAA dev. Thus the only people working in AAA really love making games.

What other industries are recruiting from the general gaming programming pool? From time to time we get somebody with gaming programmer experience apply for a post with us but little experience is transferrable. Very occasionally we'll want somebody with compiler or graphics experience but then we're looking for senior software engineers from AMD, Nvidia, Intel or Microsoft.

Maybe on the creative side? Artists, sound engineers and CGI people have those talents which are more transferrable, but also they're also greater in supply.

 

[iroboto]

What other industries are recruiting from the general gaming programming pool? From time to time we get somebody with gaming programmer experience apply for a post with us but little experience is transferrable. Very occasionally we'll want somebody with compiler or graphics experience but then we're looking for senior software engineers from AMD, Nvidia, Intel or Microsoft.

Maybe on the creative side? Artists, sound engineers and CGI people have those talents which are more transferrable, but also they're also greater in supply.

Web, Enterprise even Small medium businesses pay significantly higher wages for less technical roles. It’s not that they are actively recruiting from games, but most developers choose not to enter games unless they love it.

Senior programmers in web/mobile will make 85-105K in Canada. And all their doing is coding C#/Java and using some framework. We have SharePoint developers who make similar pay and all they do is design SharePoint solutions. Silicon Valley people are all in the 150K range.

Only a handful of people in this world need to know how to code the low level nitty gritty.

I decided not too long ago I would make an attempt at it. Despite my credentials, the best they could give me was a junior tools coder role. ~60K with a fraction of benefits and vacation pay and perks compared
To telcos. Not to mention the dreaded crunch time.

The world is short on developers it would appear.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

Web, Enterprise even Small medium businesses pay significantly higher wages for less technical roles. It’s not that they are actively recruiting from games, but most developers choose not to enter games unless they love it.

Web, enterprise and server markets pay vastly more than the gaming industry does but equally you're only going to get on that pay scale if you have some actual web/enterpreise/server experience and can show some applied skills, programmers are a dime a dozen these days. You're not going to walk out to EA on $80k/year and walk into SAP and get $200/year without a rounded knowledge of C, C#, Perl, Python, Ruby, SQL and maybe even COBOL. Being able to use Unity, CryEngine or Unreal Engine 4.x is worthless. You'll likely to be on less than you were in the gaming industry because as far as enterprise is concerned, you're basically an intern there to learn.

 

[iroboto]

Web, enterprise and server markets pay vastly more than the gaming industry does but equally you're only going to get on that pay scale if you have some actual web/enterpreise/server experience and can show some applied skills, programmers are a dime a dozen these days. You're not going to walk out to EA on $80k/year and walk into SAP and get $200/year without a rounded knowledge of C, C#, Perl, Python, Ruby, SQL and maybe even COBOL. Being able to use Unity, CryEngine or Unreal Engine 4.x is worthless. You'll likely to be on less than you were in the gaming industry because as far as enterprise is concerned, you're basically an intern there to learn.

I agree there is lock-in to either career paths but the question is to why start in games unless you love it. But being a game developer imo is a much tougher path to a stable and high pay career.

being a SAP programmer is an easier path than being a graphics programmer. There are more positions available, there is more pay earlier and there is likely a higher pay at the median.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I agree there is lock-in to either career paths but the question is to why start in games unless you love it. But being a game developer imo is a much tougher path to a stable and high pay career.

From what I've seen it's much easier to get into games than enterprise. You can get yourself noticed by games companies from your bedroom, you can't do that in the corporate world. Plus there is the unrealistic requirements of the corporate world, i.e. we want somebody with 10 ten years using C#, six years using Java, seven years practical industry experience, but nobody over 22 need apply.

being a SAP programmer is an easier path than being a graphics programmer.

You must have a lot of experience with ERP6.

 

[BRiT]

It's far easier to make it in Corporate America because the business positions available vastly far and exceed the positions available in Game Development. There's thousands and tens of thousands of businesses for every 1 game development company. In the corporate world, basic slags of developers at junior levels are easily hired in at salary levels far exceeding game developers. This happens all the time even in the Mid-West USA. Yes, it takes more talent to get to the senior positions but the basic semi-worthless junior skill level developers still make mad cash.

 

[chris1515]

It's far easier to make it in Corporate America because the business positions available vastly far and exceed the positions available in Game Development. There's thousands and tens of thousands of businesses for every 1 game development company. In the corporate world, basic slags of developers at junior levels are easily hired in at salary levels far exceeding game developers. This happens all the time even in the Mid-West USA. Yes, it takes more talent to get to the senior positions but the basic semi-worthless junior skill level developers still make mad cash.

I work on corporate side programming and it is easier in Europe too...

And mathematics is much more difficult in rendering programming...

 

[iroboto]

From what I've seen it's much easier to get into games than enterprise. You can get yourself noticed by games companies from your bedroom, you can't do that in the corporate world. Plus there is the unrealistic requirements of the corporate world, i.e. we want somebody with 10 ten years using C#, six years using Java, seven years practical industry experience, but nobody over 22 need apply.

You must have a lot of experience with ERP6.

I don't do SAP. We hire SAP devs, but I don't do SAP personally. I do mainly MS technologies, still pays, not as well, but the payout is still good. But I worked with SAP devs if that was required of me, so perhaps my viewpoint of what they needed to get there was skewed since we're just a team away.

We're coming from oddly two different points of view, this might just be an experience thing. I don't think it's easy to get into AAA dev. I wrote the technical tests, I'm pretty confident most programmers are not prepped for it, at least not anyone I know coming out of university should know how to do.

 

[iroboto]

It's far easier to make it in Corporate America because the business positions available vastly far and exceed the positions available in Game Development. There's thousands and tens of thousands of businesses for every 1 game development company. In the corporate world, basic slags of developers at junior levels are easily hired in at salary levels far exceeding game developers. This happens all the time even in the Mid-West USA. Yes, it takes more talent to get to the senior positions but the basic semi-worthless junior skill level developers still make mad cash.

This!

 

[Deleted member 11852]

I wrote the technical tests, I'm pretty confident most programmers are not prepped for it, at least not anyone I know coming out of university should know how to do.

This is the point, no?

 

[iroboto]

This is the point, no?

to be honest, i'm not sure We'll need to discuss in the other thread. But the required experience to get into AAA dev is a weird one. They expect you to already have AAA dev experience to apply for it. Somehow there is a way in, and indie apparently isn't good enough, unless I assume you're AA.
It's certainly a lot easier to get a junior dev role in corporate.

I really don't know tbh. It's worth asking around how people got their jobs i guess.

 

[BRiT]

I cant even count how many places I've worked at directly or consulted for where their Senior Engineers / Senior Developers were Senior in name only. They "earned" the Senior titles through multiple means:

• Worked at company for 5+ years
• One of Few developers who remained while others left
• Worked in programming/development for 6+ years

I've seen amazing skill levels at all sorts of various position titles ranging from Intern/Co-Op to Software Engineer 1 (junior) up through Software Engineer 4 (senior/lead) to Senior Lead Engineer (not all companies have this title) to Architects. I've also seen equally horrible skill levels at the same job titles.

About every 5 years I look at the pay levels of entry level positions and it's amazing. The pay keeps increasing while the senior pay level seems to have leveled off. There's also a lot of places that still have the mentality that a Developer is a Developer is a Developer and they're all interchangeable. It typically takes 1 year effort of having 3 Senior Developers being brought into their organization to show them how having top talent can turn things around. It's one of those seeing the results and vast improvements that opens their eyes. Even after seeing and experiencing that there's still hard habits left to break like wanting to throw more lesser skilled people on a project to get it done quicker. It never turns out well.

Anyways, enough of that slightly off-topic semi-ranting.

In the Mid-West, it takes a special talent and dedication to go through computer science degree and want to pursuit a career in game development. Some of that is changing where some universities are offering courses in game development, but it's not a full study, just a course like Game Development 101 and maybe a Game Develop 201, which are on the same levels as C++ Programming or Data Structures courses. They're definitely not on the Senior Level courses such as Compiler Design or Operating Systems Architecture. There are some educational facilities that do offer Game Development Courses but I really have yet to see any of them come highly recommended from the industry.

As was sort of mentioned earlier, the sort of people who have the drive or desire to be a game developer will typically take matters into their own hands and push themselves on their own time outside of education like during high-school or college. This is where it could be easier to break into the field and gain field experience on their own time. This knowledge will track through to real game development. I also think, but have no direct evidence other than gut feel, that Game Development is vastly tied more towards academic approaches and knowledge.

Though a person with that drive or desire can be self-taught in any field, but that can only help them pick up general skills that will help them in the corporate world. There is nothing to truly prepare them for all the messed up requirements and experiences the Corporate World provides especially when there are no requirements and the business has no idea what they need or what they have or what they do. Or having to live with the sins of the past where some mentally deficient derived system is being used because someone higher up the ladder made an uninformed decision 5 to 10 years earlier or is neighbors or gold-buddies with the corporate sales guy from that vendor.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

My 2 cents - Iroboto's position is mostly that people going through computer science education are going to go into corporate software development, because it's easier* and pays better. This reduces the number of people in game development from which only a subset will have leet skillz suitable for a flagship developer to head some landmark first-party, platform selling titles. Those entering game development from the hobby/indie space generally won't have low level understanding and grind through Unity and UE. The people heading engine development and pioneering graphical technologies seem to be those who have been in the industry for years, grew up having to solve their own problems and write their own engines, and are using that in the senior game dev roles in creating AAA titles. If a dev house wants some of the experienced talent, they need to poach from other devs.

You need a specific mindset and set of skills to be a top-tier senior developer which will single out most people. There'll be plenty of middle-tier devs, but few of the best who'll be heading SIGGRAPH presentations on their latest developments. Actually, that seems a suitable litmus test. What's the average age/experience of the SIGGRAPH speakers? How much young blood is coming in and pushing forwards graphics? It's perhaps a limitation of education too that the people who really know how to code are busy coding and not teaching new generations to take their place.

* There's probably no such thing as easy development in the real world!

 

[Deleted member 11852]

to be honest, i'm not sure We'll need to discuss in the other thread. But the required experience to get into AAA dev is a weird one. They expect you to already have AAA dev experience to apply for it. Somehow there is a way in, and indie apparently isn't good enough, unless I assume you're AA. It's certainly a lot easier to get a junior dev role in corporate.

The way into AAA game development (without AAA experience) is getting a junior role in a company doing AAA games. Development teams like CD Projekt Red, Naughty Dog, and any of Ubisoft's teams, will have a handful of leads, a bunch of senior people and a dozens/hundreds of of junior positions. Neil Druckmann starting at Naughtuy Dog as a programming intern - which means you get paid very little, because more valuably you're getting training, practical education and experience. I've also heard more thna a few programmers mention they started in QA and moved over because of demonstrating an aptitude for technical issues.

I think it's as much as working hard and being in the right place at the right time, but that's really the same for falling into any job you're suited for but technically or educationally unqualfiied to do.

My 2 cents - Iroboto's position is mostly that people going through computer science education are going to go into corporate software development, because it's easier* and pays better. This reduces the number of people in game development from which only a subset will have leet skillz suitable for a flagship developer to head some landmark first-party, platform selling titles.

Despite the lower pay, crunch, and fickle nature of the video games industry, I can imagine that working in something cool like the entertainment buisness is as much bigger draw than working for Corporation X where you're one of a number of people working on some sales application for other Corporate Suits to use. I mean, you've got to want to go into work, right? Sure, you gotta pay the bills, but would you rather work on Halo 6 of MS Office 2017?

I don't perceive a drought of talent in the videogames industry. If there was, the first thing to drop would be eligability requirements. I browse the job adverts across all disciplines every week because I have to know what I need to pay people to work for me and yesterday I saw a job advert for an engine programmer (not a senior engine programmer) at Insomniac Games, where the education/experience requirement was headlined with:

• Master’s degree or equivalent; or seven plus years related experience and/or training; or equivalent combination of education and experience.

A second post at Insomniac Games is for Director, Ganeplay Programming:

• Master's degree (M.A.) or equivalent; or twelve years related experience and/or training; or equivalent combination of education and experience.

That's not a sign of talent drought.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

That's Insomniac* asking for a role. You don't know how long it's been up or how long it'll be before the role is filled. You also can't compromise on such positions - what's the minimum realistic Insomniac could ask for given their experience and deadlines and knowledge what it takes to actually finish and release a game?

The original query was about creating from scratch one or more AAA dev studios. We're talking filling every senior role. We're talking approaching all these veterans with 12 years experience and getting them to come work for MS (or whoever) instead of Insomniac and Naughty Dog et al.

* They've been going since 1994 under Ted Price and have weathered a few duds in that time but kept going. They seem to offer a stability few studios can match and, barring a couple flops, have a great reputation, so if you're an experienced developer looking at studio closures and wanting a bit more perceived safety, you may well consider a switch.

 

[Deleted member 11852]

You don't know how long it's been up or how long it'll be before the role is filled.

Our recruitment team do keep tabs on when adverts go up and get taken down because understanding industry demand for particular skillsets (and pay) is critical for effective recruitment.

The original query was about creating from scratch one or more AAA dev studios. We're talking filling every senior role. We're talking approaching all these veterans with 12 years experience and getting them to come work for MS (or whoever) instead of Insomniac and Naughty Dog et al.

You've read this thead differently to me. As I posted above, it would be unworklable for any AAA studio to be staffed entirely by industry veterens or senior people. The greater the experience the greater the pay and you may simply not be able to fill a post with somebody with the desired background. That's when somebody with less experience/education may get an opportunity - which is bascially everybody who has ever been promoted to any new role.

edit: typos.