EU PS3 = Software PS2 Emulation

[Rolf N]

I compared the video outputs over S-Video between my slimline PStwo and my PS3 today. Hooking them up to my capture card allows me to identify the exact video standard and number of lines in the signal.

I'm not quite sure what I expected to see anymore, but FWIW the outputs were identical. I tried Final Fantasy X, which outputs a straight PAL 576i50 signal, but funnels a 16:9 viewport into a 4:3 output format, so there are enormous black bars. 8% overscan.

Then I tried Jak 3. It's the PAL version, but the interesting thing about it is that its 60Hz option makes it output an NTSC signal (not PAL60) with about 9% overscan.

In both of these games the signal is equal between the two systems over S-Video. The same amount of overscan, and in Jak 3, where the signal is significantly off-center, that too is exactly the same.
I'm not sure there's much value in trying out more, as I have already disproven my own theory that the European PS3 doesn't support 480i output, but then again different rules might apply to analog video and digital video output, with possibly another set of rules for component video and RGB (because there are clearly defined progressive modes, which are somewhat of an inofficial hack for composite and s AFAIK).

 

[DaWizeGuy]

I can confirm Rolf N's finding. Everything seems to be fine when using composite (RGB SCART) connection. I tested ICO and Jak3 which both looked identical on my PSTwo and PS3 in 60 Hz mode (480i).

But when using HDMI there's a good amount of underscan and more visible black bars on the PS3. This is probably caused by the 480i -> 480p and 576i -> 576p internal conversion.

 

[Frank]

So, most likely they will remove the GS altogether in future revisions, when they have the emulation up to spec, and add 4 MB SRAM to the RDX.

Which is a good thing for everyone, because they can then also provide multiple IQ improvements, like triple buffering, better filtering, AA and better scaling. While making things cheaper.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

Not sure if they'll ever get GS out and maintain BC. Just emulating the EE has wide-reaching generated issues, and that's the 'easy' part! If GS goes, I expect BC goes with it. Perhaps in a slimline PS3 in ~2009

 

[Frank]

Not sure if they'll ever get GS out and maintain BC. Just emulating the EE has wide-reaching generated issues, and that's the 'easy' part! If GS goes, I expect BC goes with it. Perhaps in a slimline PS3 in ~2009

If they can, they will. Investing a lot of money in software is much cheaper in the long run.

 

[Rolf N]

If they can, they will. Investing a lot of money in software is much cheaper in the long run.

RSX does not have what it takes to match the GS in every circumstance, so it would take at least another piece of embedded memory to get rid of the GS proper.
IMO they'll integrate it somewhere to reduce bonding and pins, but they won't be able to remove the GS, not even the logic part of it. It's too fast to emulate with any accuracy yet. It's not worth the effort. Instead of redesigning RSX to incorporate emulation-specific functions, they can just fuse the two designs into one die.

They'll throw it out when they have the performance to do everything safely in software (PS4).

 

[Frank]

RSX does not have what it takes to match the GS in every circumstance, so it would take at least another piece of embedded memory to get rid of the GS proper.
IMO they'll integrate it somewhere to reduce bonding and pins, but they won't be able to remove the GS, not even the logic part of it. It's too fast to emulate with any accuracy yet. It's not worth the effort. Instead of redesigning RSX to incorporate emulation-specific functions, they can just fuse the two designs into one die.

They'll throw it out when they have the performance to do everything safely in software (PS4).

That's why I assume they'll incorporate 4MB of SRAM into the RSX.

But an SPU is easily a match for the GS, if running the right emulator. And if one doesn't cut it, there are more. They have no other function while running the emulator anyway.

 

[Fafalada]

so it would take at least another piece of embedded memory to get rid of the GS proper.

All that would do is small speedup to parts of rendering where RSX is already much faster then GS. The problem is not the bandwith.

 

[Rolf N]

All that would do is small speedup to parts of rendering where RSX is already much faster then GS. The problem is not the bandwith.

It's not?
Doesn't the GS have 320 bytes per cycle of sustainable aggregate bandwidth to/from its eDRAM, if you stroke it from just the right direction? I always believed exactly that to be the problem.

 

[Xenus]

The problem if I remember right involves changing states mid frame and weird stuff like that which would be extremely bad to do on a modern gpu.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

It's not?
Doesn't the GS have 320 bytes per cycle of sustainable aggregate bandwidth to/from its eDRAM, if you stroke it from just the right direction? I always believed exactly that to be the problem.

Search for Faf's previous posts on the subject of software emulation. BW isn't the issue. GS is just plain weird.

 

[Arwin]

Firmware 1.70 is out, and should fix a few more games in terms of backward compatibility. Apparently, Project Evolution Soccer 6 is one of them, so if you have that game you might want to try.

 

[Silent]

Firmware 1.70 is out, and should fix a few more games in terms of backward compatibility. Apparently, Project Evolution Soccer 6 is one of them, so if you have that game you might want to try.

Seems that the BC website still isn't updated then

 

[Rolf N]

Seems that the BC website still isn't updated then

It isn't much, but I have summarized my impressions in the firmware 1.70 thread.

 

[Arwin]

I've tested GT4 fairly extensively and it works now, even with force feedback on the wheels it supports, so that's a great improvement for me, as that was the game I played most on the PS2 by far. There were some small glitches in the opening video, the output resolution of the game seems to be fixed to 1280x720 whether you use 16:9 or 4:3, and on one track I noticed that ocasionally you'd have some color errors in the clouds just in the top left corner. All in all minor issues, so I'm happy. Plus since you could only have one save per memory card, the PS3's flexible virtual memory card system is great advantage ...

 

[kyleb]

.. the output resolution of the game seems to be fixed to 1280x720 whether you use 16:9 or 4:3, and on one track I noticed that ocasionally you'd have some color errors in the clouds just in the top left corner.

Is the the PS3 upscaling PS2 games now, forcing it?

 

[Arwin]

Is the the PS3 upscaling PS2 games now, forcing it?

Sorry for the confusion, I don't think so. It's just that when I run it on my widescreen TV, which has a resolution of 1366x768, it only covers the screen with a 1280x720 image. But the source of that image could be a 576i image with bars or whatever. Just noticed it and that its weird, as it is a bit like some parts of the NTSC version of FFXII turned out on the PS2 on the same TV.

 

[DaWizeGuy]

Seems that the BC website still isn't updated then

As of today the BC site still isn't updated. It's probably because firmware 1.70 breaks BC for several games (MGS3, The Getaway etc.) which worked perfectly under 1.60. They probably won't update the list until they sort these issues out and release a new firmware version.

 

[DJ12]

Sorry for the confusion, I don't think so. It's just that when I run it on my widescreen TV, which has a resolution of 1366x768, it only covers the screen with a 1280x720 image. But the source of that image could be a 576i image with bars or whatever. Just noticed it and that its weird, as it is a bit like some parts of the NTSC version of FFXII turned out on the PS2 on the same TV.

I get the same thing, only it sets my TV in 576p mode.

There is no reason why it shouldn't completely fill the screen at that res (after all it's just standard PAL res but "progressive")

As it's the only PS2 game I still have in the house I cannot test any others to see if the problem is the same with those. I did try Final Fantasy 8 though, and I honestly cannot remember that filling the screen either.

Hopefully it will be fixed soon, although at the minute I'm just glad GT4 works now. Aside from the screen issue, it seems a little bit smoother to me. Nurenburgh for example always used to display a touch of slow down before the race actually gave you control, I haven't noticed it when playing it on my PS3.

For some reason though every 3rd or 4th time I play the game it suffers from slowdown during the races. Don't know why as if I quit the game and instantly restart it, it's fine.

The only thing I remember "doing" each time it happens is pressing the PS button before being prompted to do so. It would be really weird if that is the problem.

 

[kyleb]

Sorry for the confusion, I don't think so. It's just that when I run it on my widescreen TV, which has a resolution of 1366x768, it only covers the screen with a 1280x720 image. But the source of that image could be a 576i image with bars or whatever. Just noticed it and that its weird, as it is a bit like some parts of the NTSC version of FFXII turned out on the PS2 on the same TV.

Ah, that is just underscan done so that the many TVs that overscan signals won't cut off part of the image. At least in NTSC land all PS2 games do that.