Ethics as it pertains to returning broken stuff

[Frank]

As someone already said in this thread, if we would roughly split the participants into EU and US spheres, the EU people would expect and demand the law to protect them from the big companies, while the US people would say that you have to be a smart customer and vote with your wallet.

Did you know, that there is a big struggle going on for years in the EU, because they have made it illegal for printer manufacturers to use measures that make it impossible for consumers to buy inkt and toner from other brands or refill them? While the manufacturers every time come up with things that are barely legal, but still make that impossible? Who is the good guy there?

 

[Skrying]

Did you know, that there is a big struggle going on for years in the EU, because they have made it illegal for printer manufacturers to use measures that make it impossible for consumers to buy inkt and toner from other brands or refill them? While the manufacturers every time come up with things that are barely legal, but still make that impossible? Who is the good guy there?

Unrelated.

 

[Mize]

I'm all for the minimum 1 year warranty (hell I manufacture oxygen sensors that have a 1 year warranty when operated at 3000 F (~1600 C) - a shade harder than a glorified dvd player running in someone's living room), but the only way to get there in the US is the power of the purse or ... COSTCO!

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Dickus en skry you dont understand what my point is.

I understand, but your point is irrelevant. Yeah, I might put in a vote for minimum warranty lengths (maybe, after I spent some time looking at all sides of the issue), but whether we should or shouldn't have one isn't the issue... we don't, the guy broke the law, end of story.

My point is that a expensive item like xbox360 should last for a reasonable time and if they dont they should be replaced for free.

They are. It's called a warranty.

Everything below one year isnt a reasonable time for a product like xbox360, I think that is something everyone will agree with.

Apparently not, and if you don't think the stated warranty is unreasonable you have no obligation to purchase or right to own said product.

 

[Mat3]

I don't agree with what he did. It's stealing, plain and simple.

 

[DemoCoder]

The real irony is, CostCo is one of the "good guy" companies, the kind that left wing anti-Walmart labor activists point to and say 'there is a real company with corporate social responsibility CSR(tm)'. CostCo is well known for liberal treatment of their employees, good benefits, high wages (compared to competitors) and low prices for consumers. They also don't have paranoid customer service policy -- until now.

The more people rip them off and take advantage of their generous and lack policies, the more they will be forced to become the stereotype of a big bad heartless non-consumer-friendly company, who treats its workers like shit, because thieving little bastards are stealing bread from the mouth of their workers to get their XB360 fix.

Sure, Microsoft should be held to a minimum warrantly (in many US states, the law is 1 year, e.g. California), but that means at minimum, you return it to the place you bought it, or MS, not to some other store via a fraudulent switcheroo. Even if CostCo could recoup the unit cost of a 1-1 swap, it's costing them customer service labor that they shouldn't have to bear because they did not furnish the original unit.

So yes, illegal and immoral.

 

[Colourless]

Just because someone else might have performed an unethical action against him (Microsoft allegedly selling him a badly designed product and will not replace it, you don't know he may have caused it to die), he is not excused for his unethical activity of defrauding CostCo by wanting a refund for the XBox that he didn't buy from them.

Whatever someone did to him does not excuse his unethical activity! There should be no ethical grey area. Something either is or isn't ethical. Situational bias and context shouldn't have an effect. He defrauded CostCo, end of story.

You know what they say. Two wrongs don't make a right.

 

[Blazkowicz]

as far as the product breaking, yes, a year of effective life is crap, given that i've seen 80286 based machines running solid for 20 years, monitor, printer, modem and all, so its not impossible to build "state of the art" hardware and have it last for longer than 12-14 months, it just takes a desire to produce quality products (something that the IT industry really needs to get back to...)

remember that 80286 machines with peripherals costed something like $10,000 back then .
still a $400 console is expensive enough.

the comments that say he's not a friend worth keeping, don't talk to him, beat him with a stick, send him to jail are nuts. friends don't do that to each other do they? (well I'm exagerating)

what I'd tell to that guy : not that big of a deal but you were dumb and quite a bit of an asshole. Why not ask the original retailer, and then MS if that fails. not only the last post in that thread gives it away (MS replaces it), but you'd expect a early unit, out of warranty for a few weeks and well known for problems to be replaced, no?
It doesn't even cost anything to ask. he's maybe the kind of people that can't see the human aspect of things and only see strict rules, ironically.

He also doesn't have an excuse as he could afford to buy another one.

on a side note :

Unless your friend got it for Christmas last year or earlier it is still under warranty. The warranty was extended to one year instead of the paltry 90 days.

no federal law for a mandatory one year warranty on consumer devices? that sucks.



a funnier story :
cut the USB plug on your logitech mouse, send it to logitech, wire again your mouse with a spare USB plug taken on a bare USB cable or broken or crappy shit, get a new mouse by mail. that sure is unethical but not that much, I'd be logitech, I'd ask people to send the whole mouse ya know.

 

[bloodbob]

Wrong and bad its wrong because its clearly wrong. Its bad because they are supporting a crappy product still the guy should have simple refused to buy an MS products in the future.

 

[PARANOiA]

To those who think this is ok... a question:

Is it ok if he just broke in and stole one from the shop?

 

[V3]

To those who think this is ok... a question:

Is it ok if he just broke in and stole one from the shop?

Depend on whose moral standard you go by.

If you say its ok for MS to sell a dud for $400, it should be ok for a kid to defraud CostCo, it should also be ok if he just broke in and exchange it at the shop. CostCo or any other shops that sell Xbox 360 are helping MS sells duds in the period where MS had production issues with 360s, they are not that innocent.

Like consumers refusing to buy a good for some reasons, shops can also take a stance against a company by refusing to carry their products. If you're not going to take the ethical stance yourself, don't expect others to do it for you.

 

[Mize]

Gee so there are no legal courses of action here eh? When one is too lazy to use appropriate channels to deal with "duds" then, hey, those laws are flexible! No problem.

So where's the line? If MS sells a dud can he vandalize their headquarters? I mean that line defined by the law wasn't so absolute so why not sway further? And since its COSTCO's duty to vet the quality of every unit that MS produces why not vandalize their stores too! Yeah!

Of course he probably called up MS customer service and talked to them first...right?
Then he probably lodged a BBB complaint...right?

 

[Crisidelm]

Keep stretching, you may get somewhere in the end. Sheesh...

 

[NIB]

Let me remind to all you who say "Omg, its illegal, therefore you have no right to do it", that every single nation in the history had a "revolution" which was obviously "illegal" but "good". But i guess, the american, french, greek, whatever revolutions shouldnt have happened because they were illegal.

I also suggest reading Antigone by Sophocles. Its an ancient greek tragedy.

Now, i am not saying that this boy's act was revolutionary but it was an act of despair against a fundamentally unfair system. Microsoft(and everyone else) gives 2 years warranty in Europe because they are forced to by law. Because in Europe there are laws who protect the consumer. In the US, you dont have those laws.

You should question yourself, why dont you have those laws? Are they insane? Are they unfair? Are they hurting the companies too much? No, the answer is simple. You dont have those laws, because companies in the US can get away without being forced into complying to something like this.

In some countries, the raped woman is guilty of being raped and she is punished by the law. Thats what the law says in those countries. Do you think that raped women should just sit there and take the punish simply because the law says so?

Yes my example is extreme, so that you can understand my point better. Its the same thing. You have an unfair law, which was made by men(or companies in the case of the xbox) in expense of women(or consumers in the case of the xbox).

 

[Skrying]

That was a good laugh.

That comparison is so fundamentally broken.

 

[tongue_of_colicab]

He is somewhat right though. That there is a law against something doesnt mean that law is right. Like smoking marihanha in the states is illigal, but does smoking marihanha makes you a criminal? I dont think so. Its just something that is banned by the law for some stupid reason.

Same goes for speeding. Everybody with a car probably drove to fast atleast once in their lives. Now are those people criminals for breaking the law?

 

[Skrying]

Yes, by definition they are. That is separate from what is ethically right though. For example, in the case of rape or in general abuse of another person, that person has no choice at all. In this case however both sides have a clear choice. The buyer knew what he was getting into before, during, and after the purchase of his Xbox 360.

I disagree with a lot of laws, but I think it is both legally and ethically wrong in what this person did. They had a choice, a very clear choice, it was their fault that made a bad decision.

It should be noted that I do think the Xbox 360, PS3, Wii, or really any such electronic device should come with at least a two year warranty. They do not, but that does not give this person the right to steal and therefore hurt me in return. This stuff comes around, its the key reason why Costco has to be more aggressive with their return policy, and that just sucks and makes me a bit pissed.

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Skyring summed up the rebuttal. Illegal and unethical are different ideas, though often give the same viewpoint.

He was clearly in the wrong legally, whatever you may think of the laws here. And what he did was also unethical unless you go really grasping for straws.

Yeah, there are times when breaking the law may not be unethical, but the existance of those examples has nothing to do with this case since the circumstances are vastly different. The comparison breaks down on the basis of unlike circumstances.

 

[JF_Aidan_Pryde]

Technically, he did a bad, illegal thing. But everyone knows law does not equate to ethics.

But let's just say that he did the unethical thing. The second question in this thread relates to the response that he god as a result of what he did.

Personally I think this thing is pretty trivial. This is about as trivial as a 'crime' (even if you can call it that) can get. If you are this guy's friend, you would have to be utterly heartless and destitute of compassion to just ditch him because of a out of warranty swap.

And let's not forget this is a kid we are talking about. He doesn't earn your six digit silicon valley salary. That XBOX360 probably meant a lot to him. Where's the friggin compassion?

 

[Bigus Dickus]

Yes, let's let cut our children plenty of slack and let them commit crimes from time to time because "something means a lot to them, and they are only children." I for one can't stand parents raising children to actually have ethics, morals, and a respect for the law.