Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
Too afraid to get all their EA advertising pulled from their websites if they give an unfavourable review.
Crysis 2 PC edition OT
- Thread starter Neb
- Start date
Too afraid to get all their EA advertising pulled from their websites if they give an unfavourable review.
They had a seperate studio to work on MP, Crytek UK, formally Free Radical.
It's not like the game deserves unfavorable reviews.
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
No, I don't think it does, but it does take several steps backwards compared to their previous PC games. In terms of tech, design and gameplay philosophy, etc, it isn't the advanced tour-de-force their previous games were on their release. There have been compromises made for it's multiplatform target audience.
green.pixel
Veteran
Yeah, I know.
I'm praying STALKER 2 doesn't suffer the same fate. Not only because of the game itself, but because it could lead to layoffs at GSC if the game underperforms. I can see there will be a lot of "issues" that would need to be "addressed" to make an entry on consoles in the crowded console genre where it could get lost in the sea of mediocre "AAAAA" titles with ridiculously higher marketing budgets and hype.
[strike]Inventory system[/strike]
[strike]Vast, non-linear, open level design[/strike]
[strike]Assumption of an audience that can figure out things on its own[/strike]
Every PC franchise (apart from maybe Valve's) that was formerly PC-only/centric suffered when it went multiplat with the next installments in the series, i.e., not just ported to consoles but designed from the bottom up that the game will be on consoles.
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I don't see many compromises. I don't believe that if it were PC exclusive it would have been any more open than it is. They clearly wanted to do something different and I don't think the experience is better or worse...just different. It's a great game, and still plays and feels like Crysis.
Nothing about inventory management or non-linearity needs to be changed for consoles.
People (both the general public and devs) need to stop thinking that console and pc gamers are any different. We all enjoy the same kinds of games and many, many people game on both console and PC (and your "lowest common denominator" attitude is fairly insulting to those of us who do). The only real differences are controls and hardware, which have been shown to be more than capable of most genres outside of RTS.
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green.pixel
Veteran
You see, that's the thing. It's more about, actually it's almost always, how the devs/pubs judge the console market, rather than something that needs to be strictly obeyed. There is quite a lot of evidence to support that. The concerns aren't based on wrongly assumed platform superiority complexes, it's based on the loss of PC-centric design ideas.
Assuming they'd actually make extra money, by proportionally selling more copies to offset the increased dev costs, yes, making a game for consoles would lead to streamlining/dumbing the game down in order to "expand the market". Removing features that can't fit into the world of analogue sticks, auto-aim/assists and not so many buttons because they don't want to/can't afford to develop two versions of the same game.
In Stalker, there is an assumtion that the player can handle things on its own and is just dropped into the world. It just lets you die. People complained that the first Mass Effect was a hard game. ME1 FFS!
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I would argue that not telling the player what to do, just dropping them into very difficult combat scenarios is not good design. Especially considering the frequency of encounters and surprises, and the length of load screens after a death. There's a reason a lot of people recommend mods that reduce the difficulty.
I hope that is addressed in Stalker 2. You can still have a difficult and punishing game (see Demon's Souls) without denying basic information to the player. Telling the player about the games fundamental elements (the HUD, anomalies, bleeding, radiation) and how to treat them isn't handholding or dumbing down, it's good design.
I hope that is addressed in Stalker 2. You can still have a difficult and punishing game (see Demon's Souls) without denying basic information to the player. Telling the player about the games fundamental elements (the HUD, anomalies, bleeding, radiation) and how to treat them isn't handholding or dumbing down, it's good design.
green.pixel
Veteran
When it comes to difficulty, DS is an expection rather than the rule on consoles. How much did it sell? Less than a million, IIRC?
Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
Crysis 2 couldn't even give PC players with powerful machines a sensible FOV by default. That's just one example where the PC game is dumbed down to suit the console market, rather than the console market being raised to higher expectations. And there's a lot more examples that anyone who's played the game can quote.
Yeah, you can handwave and say "it's designed that way", but it's those very design decisions is what I call into question.
I suppose we see elements of dumbing down to the lowest common denominator in all kinds of fields, such as music, movies, books, etc in an effort to grab more market share and thus more money, but let's not pretend it doesn't happen to video games just because a previous game wasn't that way, or because you have a console and feel aggrieved that this is being laid at the door of consoles in general.
Yeah, you can handwave and say "it's designed that way", but it's those very design decisions is what I call into question.
I suppose we see elements of dumbing down to the lowest common denominator in all kinds of fields, such as music, movies, books, etc in an effort to grab more market share and thus more money, but let's not pretend it doesn't happen to video games just because a previous game wasn't that way, or because you have a console and feel aggrieved that this is being laid at the door of consoles in general.
And Stalker is the exception rather than the rule on PC.
With DS I don't believe there have been figures including EU sales, the game hasn't had many shipments and was expected to sell much less.
Issues with the FOV is more due to sitting closer to screens on PC. Yeah that's a case of console first design but it's easily remedied and not an issue to those with smaller screens.
I have issues with the idea that console design is irrefutably worse than PC design, as there are many, many console games that are just as good or better than PC games (and vice versa).
Also because as I said there's really no reason for it, console and PC gamers are the same, a console-first game like Black Ops sells extremely well on PC, and I see no reason why Crysis 1 wouldn't do well on consoles. Consoles do produce different games, but they're not worse or dumber than PC.
And Crysis 2 I see as a mix of console and PC design. It's unlike most other console FPS I've played..I still don't think the experience would have been vastly different, better or worse had it been PC exclusive. Maybe less QTEs.
green.pixel
Veteran
Look at what happened with Rainbow Six and Ghost Recon when they went multiplatform.
Actually, RS is pretty much the only example that we have where for the first couple of entries in the series PC and console version co-existed for which can be said that increased dev costs coming from "next-gen" wasn't a factor for the changes made. The first game in the series came out for PS1 and N64 year and a half after the PC and is significantly different and more arcadey than the PC version. Same for Roque Spear. They are nothing but polished turds compared to their PC brethren. I can't imagine what would happen if Irrational developed SWAT 4, the last good game of its kind, with consoles in mind.
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A lot of that would have been due to technical difficulties. Consoles aren't anywhere near as limiting today as they were back then.
green.pixel
Veteran
And yet, you have R6:V streamlined/dumbed down and turned into yet another arcadey OTS shooter with stop and pop cover system. It has nothing to do with tech.
My point was about that, in that time, dev. costs couldn't be used as the excuse as they can now. Why didn't Ubisoft develop two different versions of the game like they did with first RS, Rogue Spear and Raven Shield?
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Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
Technical limitations and addressing a younger market often make this the case. You can't have massive levels and draw distances, huge textures and open environments on the consoles. So the PC gets the same corridor shooter with auto-aim, checkpoint saves and small POV, because it makes the game cheaper to make and thus profits higher.
Yeah, the consoles do great at platformers or party games, but we're not really talking about what is the console's forte, but about the PC games that have been "re-imagined" for the consoles. By making them console friendly, we've lost what made them great on the PC in order to pander to the console market. And it always seems to be the case that the PC version loses out in order to make the console version work. We rarely see the console version raised up with the things that made the PC version great.
Silent_Buddha
Legend
There's not much truth in that. There's plenty of examples of consoles games which have been difficult and have sold well.
The unfortunate part of all this is that for some reason many publishers feel that in order to target a broad spectrum of console gamers they have to make the game easy (easy to learn, easy to play, easy to finish, etc.). But if you look at the history of console gaming there have some extraordinarily hard games released that have become icons on console gaming.
This whole dumbing down thing is a relatively new thing, IMO. And when coming from a PC heritage, many formerly PC pubs and devs seem to go WAY overboard in making everything "easy."
The point being that there isn't anything about being multiplatform on consoles that means a game has to be dumbed down. Only a perception (misguided, IMO) on the publishers part that they have to make console games more simplified compared to a game made for PC.
What's unfortunate is when a game is so completely compromised and dumbed down like DA2, but gets rewarded by relatively good sales on console even though it bombed on PC.
Regards,
SB
green.pixel
Veteran
Of course. Anyone who has ever player both can tell you that the best games are the ones who are designed to take advantage of the platform they are on. The problem is that a lot of the stuff we have nowadays is "not quite console, not quite PC games" and that's hurting the quality of games to a large degree. When PC games go console, they end up more like console games. When console games go PC, they never lose anything on PC, since PC is an open platform and any deficiency (usually, controls) can easily be rectified.
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green.pixel
Veteran
Like I've already said, that's exactly the problem. Nobody cares about the exact reasons why the games get dumbed-down, it's just that they do get dumbed down, regardless of the reasoning behind the changes.
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green.pixel
Veteran
It doesn't make the game cheaper to make; they've said themselves that the budget was significantly higher than the first game, it can easily be double that of the previous game. And it certainly doesn't automatically mean they will get higher profits going multiplatform, because of the reasons mentioned previosly in the thread. They are just foolishly short sighted with customer satisfaction and thinking that giving consoles gamers great graphics and easy gameplay and that throwing loads of money at the wall and see what sticks along with marketing/advertising will fix everything. It's often the case that the management of videogeam™ companies is incompetent.
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Bouncing Zabaglione Bros.
Legend
It's cheaper as in, make one game and sell it to all markets instead of making a different game for the PC. The accountants who run the industry probably tell the publishers that it's a greater return on investment by going multiplatform, whilst only making the one same game for everyone.
