Could Dreamcast et al handle this/that game/effect? *DC tech retrospective *spawn

[Nesh]

I think the enviromens on DOA 2 are more complex (in geometry) than the PS2 Version of VF 4. So i don't See The VF4 backgrounds outta DC reach. But if they are, may be replacing some 3D elements with high res sprites could do the trick..

Soul Calibur characters have less geometry, but they are ahead on animation (TTT uses Tekken 3 Motion capture). Plus, in SC facial animation, hair appereance and Motion, muscles movement, breathing simulation ( sophitia's stage you can see that) are better than in TTT. The artistic direction and global ilumination are better in SC too ( or seem to be at least), and that helps to give characters a better look.

The only think I can agree on about SC is the gameplay animation

 

[Nesh]

And just to prove the point

 

[Karamazov]

DOA 2 DC characters poly count could be the cutscene models ? Those where higher poly and cutscenes were runing at 30fps.

 

[EsppiraK]

I think the enviromens on DOA 2 are more complex (in geometry) than the PS2 Version of VF 4. So i don't See The VF4 backgrounds outta DC reach. But if they are, may be replacing some 3D elements with high res sprites could do the trick..

The environments are way more complex on VF4, especially stages that involve, weather, water, or dinamic grounds.

But yes, they could fit everything on the Dreamcast, just downgrading some of this things.

I mean even a Sega Saturn version could be made

xD

Soul Calibur characters have less geometry, but they are ahead on animation (TTT uses Tekken 3 Motion capture). Plus, in SC facial animation, hair appereance and Motion, muscles movement, breathing simulation ( sophitia's stage you can see that) are better than in TTT. The artistic direction and global ilumination are better in SC too ( or seem to be at least), and that helps to give characters a better look.

I disagree in one point in particular, SC faces are ugly as f*ck, in fact the faces are just a texture over a "flat polygon" they are not modelled at all, SC characters looks fine in the distance but close ups reveal low quality characters.

DOA 2 DC characters poly count could be the cutscene models ? Those where higher poly and cutscenes were runing at 30fps.

There is no difference between models used in cutscenes and gameplay, (polycount wise) in fact those cutscenes have smooth transitions to gameplay. Anyway doa 2 models I posted are captured from gameplay.

My PC died yesterday, and all my data, tools etc were there, now I am posting from my laptop so I don't think I will post more polycounts anytime soon. and I have already some other interesting polycounts made but I can't acces them

Edit, Maybe is just me, but while I think it is ok to compare games using emulator shots, I think they should be taken at native resolution, posting shots at x10 the native resolution mislead about how the game really looks like on the actual hardware.

I mean there is no question TTT characters are better in every way compared to SC ones, but TTT runs at lower res than SC and I think that's why some people tend to think that it looks better when it does not.

 

[Karamazov]

I am pretty.sure cutscenes models were more detailed and that s why cutscenes were running at 30fps

 

[EsppiraK]

Dead or alive 5 also has cutscenes running at 30 fps and the character models are the same as gameplay models afaik.

Anyway as I said the models I posted are not from cutscenes are taken from the gameplay and I didn't notice any difference in polycount while on cutscenes.

 

[xaeroxcore]

The conclusion graphic wise would be like: DOA 2 > TTT > SC

 

[BrandyStarbrite]

Thanks for the polycounts for Rachel and Christie, Mr Cops and rappers.
Yay!

 

[BrandyStarbrite]

Wow! Thanks for the Dreamcast Soul Calibur character info on Astaroth and thanks for the pic of Mitsurugi EsppiraK.

More Dreamcast Soul Calibur characters please! Yay!!

By the way, I have some questions about the Dreamcast Soul Calibur Characters.

1) When you extracted the Mitsurugi or Astaroth, was the Katana sword or Astaroths Axe, already attached, or parented to Mitsurugi's or Astaroth's hand?
Or was it a seperate object?

2) Does anyone know how many "bones," are in the Mitsurugi or Astaroth model.
Or any of the Dreamcast Soul Calibur models?

3) I am curious to see Ivy's polycount, especially her Snake Sword.


PS: Thanks for the Jacky polycount pic, (even though i read the polycount, I'm glad for the pic too.
The Julia Chang, and the Samus Aran pic too.
Especially Samus' Ship.
The polycount for the ship really came in handy for me.

Oh my! Sorry to read about your PC.

I'll be back!

 

[EsppiraK]

Wow! Thanks for the Dreamcast Soul Calibur character info on Astaroth and thanks for the pic of Mitsurugi EsppiraK.

More Dreamcast Soul Calibur characters please! Yay!!

By the way, I have some questions about the Dreamcast Soul Calibur Characters.

1) When you extracted the Mitsurugi or Astaroth, was the Katana sword or Astaroths Axe, already attached, or parented to Mitsurugi's or Astaroth's hand?
Or was it a seperate object?

2) Does anyone know how many "bones," are in the Mitsurugi or Astaroth model.
Or any of the Dreamcast Soul Calibur models?

3) I am curious to see Ivy's polycount, especially her Snake Sword.


PS: Thanks for the Jacky polycount pic, (even though i read the polycount, I'm glad for the pic too.
The Julia Chang, and the Samus Aran pic too.
Especially Samus' Ship.
The polycount for the ship really came in handy for me.

Oh my! Sorry to read about your PC.

I'll be back!

Thanks, I thought it would take me more time but I almost recovered everything I lost on my PC.

I forgot to mention, (because I totally forgot about it xD) something about DOA2 characters, but after reading about how people are surprised about the characters polycounts in that game I remembered, and I have a question.

Did you played the DC USA version of the game? If so, that would explain why people thought that the polygon was lower, that version is utterly shit, later Tecmo released Dead or alive 2 Limited edition, in Japan.

It featured a lot of improvements, more stages, moves, game modes, outfits, extras and somehow better lighting and characters with higher polycount.( I don't know if all the characters though)

I am talking about this,

Up Doa 2 USA, down Doa 2 Limited edition.

 

[xaeroxcore]

Thanks, I thought it would take me more time but I almost recovered everything I lost on my PC.

I forgot to mention, (because I totally forgot about it xD) something about DOA2 characters, but after reading about how people are surprised about the characters polycounts in that game I remembered, and I have a question.

Did you played the DC USA version of the game? If so, that would explain why people thought that the polygon was lower, that version is utterly shit, later Tecmo released Dead or alive 2 Limited edition, in Japan.

It featured a lot of improvements, more stages, moves, game modes, outfits, extras and somehow better lighting and characters with higher polycount.( I don't know if all the characters though)

I am talking about this,

Up Doa 2 USA, down Doa 2 Limited edition.

That LE Edition uses the same polycount and lighting that the DOA 2 HARDCORE of PS2, and has some of the new stages. characters (Bayman, Tengu) and outfits of that version too, all without the shitty resolution and aliasing of that version. Anyway, The LE still loses some extras and some new graphical effects (which anyway are nothing special, except for the blur in the stage against Tengu) compared with the HC PS2 version.

 

[EsppiraK]

1) When you extracted the Mitsurugi or Astaroth, was the Katana sword or Astaroths Axe, already attached, or parented to Mitsurugi's or Astaroth's hand?
Or was it a seperate object?

A separate object.

3) I am curious to see Ivy's polycount, especially her Snake Sword.

Enjoy.

That LE Edition uses the same polycount and lighting that the DOA 2 HARDCORE of PS2, and has some of the new stages. characters (Bayman, Tengu) and outfits of that version too, all without the shitty resolution and aliasing of that version. Anyway, The LE still loses some extras and some new graphical effects (which anyway are nothing special, except for the blur in the stage against Tengu) compared with the HC PS2 version.

The first version of Dead or Alive 2 for the ps2 features the same low poly character, later Tecmo released Dead or alive Hardcore with even more content than the Dc limited edition.

The game on the ps2 runs at very low resolution and the texture quality took a huge downgrade, but it's worth playing it due to the extra content.

I'd like to take a look at Dead or alive 2 ultimate for Xbox if anyone know some tools to dig into the game please let me know

Yes, I am a big Dead or alive series fan.

 

[Nesh]

So the PS2 versions of DOA2 were visuslly worse than the DC versions?

 

[EsppiraK]

So the PS2 versions of DOA2 were visuslly worse than the DC versions?

From someone who is a big fan of DOA, specially Dead or alive 2 ( the xbox version especially) yes, the game looks worse on ps2, due to the low res and the worse textures, 2 weak points of the ps2 hardware and 2 strong points of the Dreamcast hardware. also the ps2 version has too much fog, even inside buildings lol.

The new lighting produces better looking scenes under certain conditions while in others screw the hole aesthetics of the game so is a trade off I guess.

 

[London Geezer]

I seem to remember that the interlaced nature of the PS2 output made it tricky to take screen grabs. On a TV the game would not look like that, it would look higher res but flicker like mad. So definitely not as good as the DC but not as bad as those screens.
Unless memory seriously fails me.

 

[idsn6]

Yes, the PS2 HUD was not illegible in the actual game. Here is a set with both consoles going through S-Video.

 

[EsppiraK]

That looks much better.

 

[function]

Hell naw, both look like ass!

Dreamcast VGA crew represent! Trinitron monitor or bust yo.

Playing the future back in the 90's (though some games might have had better colour through interlaced RGB scart output - the only acceptable alternative to VGA).

Dreamcast had improved enormously between launch (Pen Pen Tricelon) in 1998 and death in early 2001. The age of full SD assets with bump maps hadn't even begun, and games like Shenmue were made with PS1 era tools and knowledge. DC games would have continued to improve hugely over time as more sophisticated tools like z-brush came online, and as artists learned how to distribute polygons, texture detail and higher load effects such as aniso and bump mapping for best effect.

And yes, it could've done any fighting game as fighting game mechanics are simple and deterministic. Graphically, it would've been a different story as it simply couldn't have handled PS2 level polygon counts (particularly later on).

It's sim heavy games like Halo that Dreamcast couldn't have handled at all.

 

[xaeroxcore]

Watching this new thread info, and the info gathered in "yes, but how many polygons" i´d dare to say that DC could handle the next list of fighters with it´s original graphic engine and probably some downgrades and fewer upgrades, if they would have been develped for the system (may be when the 3D homebrew gets better and easier 3D apps we could see something real):

1. Virtua Fighter 4 (As PS2 ver level, maybe with some effects turned off, but with better AA and resolution).

2. Bloody Roar 3-4

3. Soul Calibur 2 (May be with lower poly count per character)

4. Dragon Ball Z Budokai 1-3 (years ago i read in a spanish magazine that Infrogames had announced a Dragon Ball for DC...i guess it resulted in the first Budokai, which has a very Dreamcast game appeal).

5. KOF Maximun Impact (with lower poly count per charcacter)

 

[EsppiraK]

Watching this new thread info, and the info gathered in "yes, but how many polygons" i´d dare to say that DC could handle the next list of fighters with it´s original graphic engine and probably some downgrades and fewer upgrades, if they would have been develped for the system (may be when the 3D homebrew gets better and easier 3D apps we could see something real):

1. Virtua Fighter 4 (As PS2 ver level, maybe with some effects turned off, but with better AA and resolution).

The Dreamcast in theory supports AA, but afaik any game released used it, it would consume too much resorces on any complex game, what most people see is the standard 640x480p that's why people think the Dreamcast used AA comparing with the ps2 but it is because the ps2 uses some weird lower resolution for games, AA does nothing to do with it.

Most commom resolutions for ps2 games are 512x512 and 640x224 with interpolation resulting in a 640x448i framebuffer ( please if I am wrong someone correct me) and that's why ps2 games are plagued with jaggies, it does not mean Dreamcast games are free of jaggies, it has too.

2. Bloody Roar 3-4

I see it prety feaseable.

3. Soul Calibur 2 (May be with lower poly count per character)

I did some polycounts on that game with Link and Heiachi among others, ( are in my dead PC) characters averages 7000-9000polys, what would have been to be downgrade is the polycount for the stages witch are pretty high for the Dreamcast.

4. Dragon Ball Z Budokai 1-3 (years ago i read in a spanish magazine that Infrogames had announced a Dragon Ball for DC...i guess it resulted in the first Budokai, which has a very Dreamcast game appeal).

Ohh It still hurts, I remember seeing some scans years ago.

5. KOF Maximun Impact (with lower poly count per charcacter)

Isn't this game 2D based?

Now I don't know were to post the polycount for Fighting games, here or in the other thread? ^^'