Confederate Flag = Racist

G

Geo

Mostly Harmless
Legend
Yes or no?

There is a minor contretemps in the US between Democrat presidential hopefuls over Governor Dean's contention that losing the votes of working class whites "who have a Confederate flag sticker on the back of their pickup truck" in places like West Virginia (which is ironic, if you know the history of West Virginia) and Tennessee is what cost Al Gore the presidency in 2000, the Democrat party the South over the last twenty years, and possibly into the future. Dean's point was that those people have kids who need healthcare too, have little sympathy with the oligarchical tendencies of the Republican party, etc.

Dem Senator John Kerry's response was essentially to imply that Dean is a racist, or at least pandering to racists --the unspoken assumption being that you can't have any respectful association to the Confederate States of America without being pro-slavery in your heart.

Comments?
 
as much as the Cross is racist or the jewish star of david is a gang sign :rolleyes:

then i guess anyone who wears a cross around their neck is pandering to the KKK.
 
To display something like this is an effort to convey a message.

What is the message most Americans take away from someone displaying this flag? If it is that he is a racist then I find being contrary a poor reason to display it, the swastika has a lot of history outside the Nazis ... but I feel disdain for who would put it on a bumpersticker for one of those all but forgotten associations. You are showing implicit support for what the Nazis stood for, regardless of your own belief of what it represents.
 
MfA said:
To display something like this is an effort to convey a message.

What is the message most Americans take away from someone displaying this flag?
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In most cases, it is to honor one's ancestors, who they believe fought honorably for "their country", and not for slavery (roughly 25% of southerners actually owned slaves). These types of organizations, United Daughters of the Confederacy, Sons of Confederate Veterans, etc, sprang up in the 1890s and continue today.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that some modern usages of the Confederate flag at southern statehouses and such sprang up during the heyday of the Civil Rights movement in the US, the 1960's. Civil Rights activists find this Deeply Significant and proof that the Confederate flag is nothing but not-so-subtle codespeak for "racist". The Southern heritage types respond that only the calendar is to blame --the early 1960's also coincided with the 100th anniversary of the war.

Btw, I suppose I should mention that I am co-webmaster of www.civilwarstlouis.com Missouri was a battleground state, both Union and Confederate, and our site covers both respectfully (tho some of the original source documents housed there do not). I thought it would be interesting to get the cosmopolitan view of the B3D denizens to this question.

Best. Geo
 
MfA said:
geo said:
MfA said:
What is the message most Americans take away from someone displaying this flag?
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In most cases, it is to honor one's ancestors
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That is an answer, but not to the question at hand ;)
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Ah, I misunderstood. The presumption of the question is that the displayer is responsible for what others "take away" from their viewing rather than what the displayer's intent in displaying is? Is that your position? That puts a rather large group responsibility on the individual, wouldn't you say? That way lays justification for beating the crap out of opposing sports fans for wearing the visiting team's colors to a game.

What do you do about regional differences? Do "most Americans" in a country three thousand miles wide get to judge, through what they "take away", each American in every little piece of this country?
 
Waving a red flag at a bull is a bad idea, but it's less objectionable because it affects mostly yourself ... creating an atmoshpere of hatred aimed at others is slightly different though. It's more like joining the F-side (some of the most rabid soccer "fans" over here) and chanting insults at the opposition even though you know you are inciting rage in your compatriots which will end up in violence, that's a tradition too. The fact that you are part of the cause does not excuse the actions of others, but it does speak of your sense of responsibility and restraint.

If you want to make a point fine, but there is precious little room for context on a bumper sticker ... so you should be sure it conveys what you want it to. If you just wanted to fly the colors for yourself you'd stick it on your dashboard.

I should have said most Americans who get see them on your car ... it wont matter much to anyone else, it sure dont matter to me (personally I only think of Hell's Angels when I think of the confederate flag for some reason :).
 
geo said:
MfA said:
To display something like this is an effort to convey a message.

What is the message most Americans take away from someone displaying this flag?
Click to expand...

In most cases, it is to honor one's ancestors, who they believe fought honorably for "their country", and not for slavery (roughly 25% of southerners actually owned slaves). These types of organizations, United Daughters of the Confederacy, Sons of Confederate Veterans, etc, sprang up in the 1890s and continue today.

On the other hand, there is no doubt that some modern usages of the Confederate flag at southern statehouses and such sprang up during the heyday of the Civil Rights movement in the US, the 1960's. Civil Rights activists find this Deeply Significant and proof that the Confederate flag is nothing but not-so-subtle codespeak for "racist". The Southern heritage types respond that only the calendar is to blame --the early 1960's also coincided with the 100th anniversary of the war.

Btw, I suppose I should mention that I am co-webmaster of www.civilwarstlouis.com Missouri was a battleground state, both Union and Confederate, and our site covers both respectfully (tho some of the original source documents housed there do not). I thought it would be interesting to get the cosmopolitan view of the B3D denizens to this question.

Best. Geo
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Southern Flags with Red Crosses (confederate symbol) and year adopted:

Alabama: 1895
Florida: 1899
Georgia (1956) new one in 2003
Mississippi: 1894


it's not a racist thing. Its a southern thing. Racists can take any symbol and make it racist, including religious items.

And I do consider myself a southerner.
Part Cherokee, part Irish/Scottish. We know of a graveyard outside of Savannah with our family names on the tombstones dating back to the early 1700s.
 
Being a Southerner, I can say there are many different reasons people fly the Confederate Flag. Yes, some are stereotypical racist rednecks who fly it for racist reasons. Others are non-stereotypical non-racist rednecks whose best friends are black and who fly it simply to proclaim to the world their pride and joy in being a redneck. (I shit you not) Others are stereotypical rich white men who fly it ostensibly for heritage pride reasons, but actually for racist reasons. Others are non-stereotypical rich white men who truly do fly it for heritage reasons. Others fly it b/c they're proud of the South's unique genteel culture, as the French are proud of their unique culture. It's a mixed bag.

I think Dean should be able to say what he said without accusations of pandering to racists, b/c there are many Southerners who fly it for other reasons. But it's really time for Southerners to wake up and acknowledge that the flag will always represent a society of which slavery was an integral part of the culture and economy. No one wants to admit the South was wrong, and all sorts of rationalizations are taught us in elementary and high-school, but the fact is slavery was a fundamental factor in the Federal power struggle b/t North and South that led directly to the Civil War. Southerners may want the flag to mean something different, more benevolent, and less guilt-inducing nowadays, but the act of desiring it doesn't make it so.
 
I personally don't understand why someone would fly the confederate flag except at a historical exhibit. However, I don't consider any of the state flags to be confederate just because they have a red cross. I grew up in North Florida, which is the only "southern" part of Florida, and I believe racism immediatly pops into most people's minds when they see the confederate flag. When I say most people I say most people in my area. I can't begin to speak for Mississippi or other states.
 
fbg1 said:
But it's really time for Southerners to wake up and acknowledge that the flag will always represent a society of which slavery was an integral part of the culture and economy. No one wants to admit the South was wrong, and all sorts of rationalizations are taught us in elementary and high-school, but the fact is slavery was a fundamental factor in the Federal power struggle b/t North and South that led directly to the Civil War. Southerners may want the flag to mean something different, more benevolent, and less guilt-inducing nowadays, but the act of desiring it doesn't make it so.
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Slavery existed for five years under the stars & bars, for 89 years under the stars & stripes. For a couple hundred under the British. I've often wondered why the "reparations" folks don't think to show up at Tony Blair's office to make their demands. Slavery was protected under the U.S. Constitution --it was only by leaving that the South put it at risk. The war was caused by secession, and secession was caused by hurt feelings, and only the hurt feelings were caused by disagreement over slavery. Ironically, the slave's best friend was the stars & bars, as without it who knows when freedom would have come; certainly not the 1860's.

Best. Geo
 
Slavery is still alive and well...in Africa.

But yeah, when I see the stars and bars, I think redneck hick. Probably racist.

But intellectually, I know that many aren't racist hicks, but antebellum pride folks.
 
Yes I saw a thing on PBS that said currently there is more slaves than were exported from africa during the time period of 1500-1830 or whenever it was officially "stopped"
 
i find the vilification of the confederate flag is more of an example of bigotry then the flag itself is.
 
Sxotty said:
Yes I saw a thing on PBS that said currently there is more slaves than were exported from africa during the time period of 1500-1830 or whenever it was officially "stopped"
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I have also heard similiar "scholars" blame europeans (colonialism) for this.

I guess blaming them makes it easier then addressing other more historical reasons for "tribal" conflict etc.
 
Having relatives across the south and obviously traveling for work, I frequenty find myself in the lower portion of the east coast. Being from NH, I am always amazed at how many times I am referred to as a Yankee. For some reason, the south still has many who are bitter over the result of the Civil War...From what I have seen over the years, those who are flying the confederate flag are doing so in protest and fully back the original belief that blacks are inferior.

Although it might not be right, I find it hard to respect anyone who still raises a confederate flag...Time to move on folks...
 
pelly said:
I am always amazed at how many times I am referred to as a Yankee. For some reason, the south still has many who are bitter over the result of the Civil War...
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You mean "The War of Northern Aggression"? Actually, my favorite appellation is "The Recent Unpleasantness". I suppose when you tell people it is all their fault, and they don't agree, they find it hard to let go.
 
geo said:
pelly said:
I am always amazed at how many times I am referred to as a Yankee. For some reason, the south still has many who are bitter over the result of the Civil War...
Click to expand...

You mean "The War of Northern Aggression"? Actually, my favorite appellation is "The Recent Unpleasantness". I suppose when you tell people it is all their fault, and they don't agree, they find it hard to let go.
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Oh, btw, on the "just let it go" front. Given the historical precedents around the world, we ought to consider ourselves (those of us who are Americans) damn lucky, relatively speaking. Yes, Reconstruction was ugly too, but look at Northern Ireland (or pick any of a bunch of other nasty examples) --they are still duking it out bloodily (tho less of late, thank Ghu) from the 1600's! Bumper stickers of a flag are relatively benign, particularly for a pluralistic, democratic country.
 
Legion said:
i find the vilification of the confederate flag is more of an example of bigotry then the flag itself is.
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Maybe it happens because up here in the North, noone who parades around with the Confederate flag has actually ever been to the South. Usually, they've never been outside their own state. Yet they still shout out "The South Will Rise Again!". And maybe it's because I don't hear about droves of Black people in the South proudly waving the Confederate flag to promote their "regional identity". Just a thought.
 
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