Church elects its first gay bishop

I find a few interesting concepts in the above.
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Just a few?

Would a father spank his child and cause him pain? Well, not just for the heck of it, but if the child brought it upon himself by doing wrong things he might.
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Lol. You can't be serious. Are you trying to compare something as trivial as physically disciplining your children to drowning the whole earth in water? How in the name of God can you equate the two? Such is an action of a maniac.

I wonder if we put more importance on this thing called "life" than God does.
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We most certainly do. To go we are nothing more than a collection of cursed souls not worth our weight in dirty rags. We value each other more then he possibly could.

Try to imagine an infinate timeline. Now imagine an infinatly small portion of that timeline. That small portion represents the length of our life. If that infinatly small portion became 50% smaller (if it were possible) who would care? In the overall scope of things, it really has no bearing. Now this thing called life might be important to us because all we really know is it, but maybe it is not quite so important? Just some of my ponderings.....
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I can see Hitler using such logic to justify what he did.

I am sorry. But God's lack of effort in upholding the value system he has put in place is a reflection of his moral ineptitude. How can he be perfectly moral and perfectly understanding and make a judgement call like has so many times in the OT.
 
Natoma said:
The bible also says that women shouldn't be bishops. See Paul's writings. :)
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Interesting to note is that Jesus never made any such rules, nor did he ever condemn homosexuals. Also, Paul condemned excessive consumption of alcohol, while Jesus made water into wine on a wedding party when they got out of wine. The people were seriously drunk already, and Jesus provided more wine. Somehow I get a more liberal feeling of the teaching of Christ than Paul. Sometimes I wonder how much of Paul's writing are supposed to be considered divine information and if something should be viewed in the light of local culture at that time or as Paul's personal opinions.
 
Legion said:
Would a father spank his child and cause him pain? Well, not just for the heck of it, but if the child brought it upon himself by doing wrong things he might.
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Lol. You can't be serious. Are you trying to compare something as trivial as physically disciplining your children to drowning the whole earth in water? How in the name of God can you equate the two? Such is an action of a maniac.
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I wouldn't consider spanking "trivial" (I consider spanking to be worse than for instance beating your wife), though not comparable to drowing the earth in water of course.
 
Humus,

I wouldn't consider spanking "trivial" (I consider spanking to be worse than for instance beating your wife),
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Would you care to explain? I have been spanked before, I deserved it. I have never beat my wife, and I even shudder to think of doing anything like that. I will however spank my child if he or she deserves it.

Or was that just said in jest?
Dr. Ffreeze
 
I'll let Humus speak for himself of course, but we've had a discussion on this topic (spanking of children) before. And essentially, his view on it is basically that Children never deserve to be spanked.

I disagree with that view, even though I can understand why someone might hold that view.

What I absolutely don't understand, as many others based on the response, is Humus' wife beating statement. I'd be curious to know in what way that is less of an issue for him.
 
Presumably because the wife is an adult and could either defend herself or leave.

Of course, usually, when somebody is physically abusing their wife, its fists or worse. I find the comparison to being less than swats on a child's behind a bit confusing.
 
RussSchultz said:
Presumably because the wife is an adult and could either defend herself or leave.
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Of course, the same argument can be made for rape. I personally don't think that's why Humus said what he did. (At least, I hope not.)

My guess, is that it's more along the lines of the "innocence" of a child being shattered, vs. that of an adult....that maybe he believes that "long term psychological damage" from spanking can so much change the child for the worse...vs. perhaps "simple wife beating", which is more just "physical" abuse?

Dunno...but enough guessing for me. ;) Maybe Humus will explain the actual rationale for us.
 
Legion,

I find that I cannot articulate my thoughts well. I would think that the main reason that it would be hard for you to understand where I am coming from is that you don't believe. If you don't accept the basic core beliefs as I do, then I would think that it would be darn near imposable to understand. The questions I see you asking led me to believe that you are putting God on more of equal terms than I do.

Dr. Ffreeze
 
All comedy aside I believe Humus is saying that wife beating is a terrible thing, but he believes beating a child is worse. But it's not like wife beating is his bag or anything. :)

Frankly some kids need a spanking to be kept in line. Talking just doesn't work all the time. My family is full of children. I've seen some that most definitely deserved to get spanked, and never did, and grew up spoiled brats. Luckily my mom didn't prescribe to that way of thinking. ;)
 
Natoma said:
All comedy aside I believe Humus is saying that wife beating is a terrible thing, but he believes beating a child is worse. But it's not like wife beating is his bag or anything. :)
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To be clear, none of us are implying that Humus is a "supporter" of wife beating! But we all certainly believe that wife beating is worse than spanking a child. (And of course, we recognize a difference between spanking a child, and "beating" a child.)

Frankly some kids need a spanking to be kept in line. Talking just doesn't work all the time. My family is full of children. I've seen some that most definitely deserved to get spanked, and never did, and grew up spoiled brats.
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We can certainly start a new topic on this. I view spanking like any other disciplinary tool. You do what you have to do to make sure your children "know" that what they did was wrong. I have actually not had to spank my children yet, and I hope I don't have to. Hopefully, my kids will continue to respond well to other methods like "time-outs". But that's just it...that's my kids. All kids are different, and they all respond differently to different things. If my kids didn't respond to "time-outs", or taking away privledges...then I may well move on to spanking.

(To be clear, my daugher is only 1, and doesn't really pertain to this discussion at all...just my 3 year old.)

Luckily my mom didn't prescribe to that way of thinking. ;)
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Then again, maybe she spanked you into Homosexuality?! :idea: Hmmm...maybe Humus has some something gong on here. :p
 
Then why would he create them?
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Adam and Eve was just the beginning. From Adam and Eve, there are good people that are pleasing to God. God loves everything that are good. Evils aren't going to stop God.

Exactly what does perfect entail? Does perfect entail allowing your people to starve to the point they cannibalize their own children?
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Yes, if you have no food, you would have to starve to death, the act of cannibal is not acceptable.

Does a perfect God incourage his people to kill homosexuals and disobedient children?
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Before Christ, yes. Its not encourage either, its given as law.

Would a perfect God flood his world killing off all life? Your God has done all these things. Is he perfect?
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Yes. God is perfect. That's why all these things happend. Even in our society, don't we punished evil deed ? A perfect God will not let evil deeds go unpunished.

Actually the whole is corrupt in his eyes. Hense the reason he gave Lucifer dominion over it.
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Yes, after the fall, everything becomes corrupt. That's why in the end of time, everything will be made new again. The end of time will come when the fullest number that can be saved is reach, for that only the omniscient God knows.

I think it is a bit absurd to suggest creating a rock is comparable to creating something like a human don't you think?
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Its creation out of nothing. Anyway, I was pointing it out, if you want to see a creation that couldn't sin, than see rocks and plants.

But yes human are better than rock, because human has an immortal soul and physical body, we are capable to enjoy the goodness of God, far better than rocks.
 
Yes, beating your wife is a terrible, awful and cowardly thing to do. Spanking a child is also a terrible, awful and even more cowardly. The child can't defend himself, its confidence and relation to the parent is eroded, and it's seldom an efficient method of getting kids "in line". Kids are supposed to do the right thing simply because they have been thought and know what is right, not because they are scared of being punished. Raising children is done by doing the right thing yourself. Kids do as you do, not what you tell them to do. If the kid doesn't get it, continue to do the right thing yourself, sooner or later the kid understands. Some kids need more time than others. If you ever find yourself in a position where you think spanking is neccesary, then assuming you don't enjoy beating children you either just don't have enough patience or the kid has some problem and needs medical care or other treatment by professionals.

I can't imagine the loving married man who beats his wife. Beating your wife is not supposed to happend, and I would be happy to send those who do to jail. Even when things aren't going smoothly in the marriage, the wife maybe does something completely wrong, maybe she was cheating on you, would that make it right to beat her to "get her in line" and teach her what is right and wrong? No, and it wouldn't work either, just make her scared from men in the future and lower her confidence. The loving parent should be no different in the way he treats the children, instead double and tripple doses of patience and understanding is needed. Love and spanking just doesn't go together.
 
Adam and Eve was just the beginning. From Adam and Eve, there are good people that are pleasing to God. God loves everything that are good. Evils aren't going to stop God.
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Are you sure? Or was it Adam an Lilith? :LOL:

Please and not pleasing aside murdering a world of people is irrational. Are you suggesting within his perfect reason he could not find a better way that would save lives?

Yes, if you have no food, you would have to starve to death, the act of cannibal is not acceptable.
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Actually i would read more of the bible before making this comment.

Before Christ, yes. Its not encourage either, its given as law.
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Lol. Are you suggesting that the coming of the "christ" some how changed God's sentiments towards homosexuals? There is no valid explination for God ordering his people to murder homosexuals at one point and then later treating them with "love and care" that he had for so many centuries denied them. They are human beings. Regardless of how you view homosexuality the humanity behind the act affords the individual basic rights. today as a society we acknowledge this. Why in God's perfect mind could he not fathome the sanctity of human life?

I have a question for you. If you lived under the God of the OT would you have carried his order out? Would you have killed Natoma or myself for our sexual orientation choices? If yes. Why now are you sympathetic to us? Simply because you have been told to be or because you recognize there is an intrinsic value within us as human?

Yes. God is perfect. That's why all these things happend. Even in our society, don't we punished evil deed ? A perfect God will not let evil deeds go unpunished.
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I do not see how your first point is related to the second. Why is perfection necessary for cause and affect?

We punish what we may view as evil. Evil itself is quite a relative/subjective thing.

God will not let evil deeds go unpunished? Really now? Perhaps he should punish the writers of luke and matthew for lying about Jesus' false lineage to David. :LOL:

Punishment really isn't the issue. Righting the wrong is what makes the difference.

Yes, after the fall, everything becomes corrupt. That's why in the end of time, everything will be made new again. The end of time will come when the fullest number that can be saved is reach, for that only the omniscient God knows.
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You do not know this for a fact of course. You merely reciting what the bible tells you.

There is no reason society should be viewed as sinful. God created us with this plan for our being in mind. He engineered the entirty of our lives according to the bible. If he merely wished wipe away sin he is under no binding contract to keep it.

Its creation out of nothing. Anyway, I was pointing it out, if you want to see a creation that couldn't sin, than see rocks and plants.
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Now now. Thats not the same thing. All of creation is corrupt. Ergo there is nothing in our material universe that is without corruption.

But yes human are better than rock, because human has an immortal soul and physical body, we are capable to enjoy the goodness of God, far better than rocks.
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Lol. According to you the rock is sinless :LOL: !
 
Humus i would just like to point out many people have been spanked as children and as adult have deep ties with their parents.
 
I find that I cannot articulate my thoughts well. I would think that the main reason that it would be hard for you to understand where I am coming from is that you don't believe. If you don't accept the basic core beliefs as I do, then I would think that it would be darn near imposable to understand. The questions I see you asking led me to believe that you are putting God on more of equal terms than I do.

Dr. Ffreeze
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I was once a believer. Now i am not. I know where you are coming from.
 
Humus said:
Kids are supposed to do the right thing simply because they have been thought and know what is right, not because they are scared of being punished.
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Now, this definitely deserves its own topic. But before I start a new one, I do want to be sure I understand your position on this.

You have a moral issue with punishment (negative reinforcement) of children, and are against spanking principally because it is just one of several types of punishment.

Is that correct?
 
No, I don't have a problem punishment in general. For instance taking away the kid's cookie when he misbehaves, denying it to go out and play or watch TV for an evening etc. are proper ways to punish. Punishment needs to be proportional to the wrongdoing; in the majority of the cases no punishment is needed, just show your disapproval with for instance a change of tone.
I do have a problem with physical or verbal mistreatment of children though and I consider spanking a serious physical mistreatment.
 
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