Canada leaders accept gay marriage ruling

antlers said:
Code:
Suppose you have two populations,  A + B.  A sexual relationship between a member of A and a member of B may be considered "natural" if and only if there exists at least one member of A, Ax, and one member of B, By, such that a sexual relationship between Ax and By could result in offspring in the customary way.

This is an interesting premise with many possible ramifications, depending on how you define the populations A + B. If you define A as Joe de Furia, and B as "Any sheep", you get a conclusion that I think most of us would agree with :)

However, Theorem 1 clearly breaks down depending on how you define the populations. If you define A as "all men" and B as "post-menopausal women" you would seem to indicate that any sexual relationship between a man and a post-menopausal woman would be unnatural.

The problem with your analysis, is that I am not "arbitrarily" defining the A and B populations for convenience. The debate is about sexuality. Males and females (groups A and B) are in fact defined by their physical sexual organs.

Code:
[Theorem 3] where the populations A + B each consist of all the members of a single species.

My question to the Theorem 2 fans out there is this: what logical reason, independent from a pre-existing conviction that homosexuality is unnatural, would you use to pick Theorem 2 over Theorem 3?

As stated above. Theorem 2 logically separates individuals by the pyhsical charateristics that define sexual gender.

In other words, insisting that Theorem 2 is preferable to Theorem 3 is no different than saying "Homosexuality is unnatural because I define 'natural' to not include homosexuality."

I disagree. Theorem 2 is preferable to theorem 1 because theorem 2 accounts for the physical, naturally occuring separation between sexual gender.

What you've done is offer a non-circular but fatally flawed definition of "natural" as it applies to sexual relationships [Theorem 1] and elide it with a harder-to-argue with, yet circular, definition [Theorem 2]. I've tried to make this as clear as possible although I suspect my explanation may still have gone past some of you.

I understand what you're trying to say. I just don't agree with it.

I respect your right to define "natural" and "unnatural" any way you choose...

Thanks for that.
 
Silent_One said:
I go by what is defined by Webster. Webster states that anything found in nature is natural. That is a very broad definition that encompasses everything. You are trying to get a very narrow definition which fails in certain circumstances and interpretations, simply because of your own prejudices and biases.

My definition does not.

Oh, I see, a "mine's better than your's" argument. So all other definitions are invalid. :rolleyes:

No. I said that his *interpretation* of the definition was flawed because it did not fit all possible scenarios, while my *interpretation* of the definition fits *all* possible scenarios.

That is why I said that his interpretation is flawed.
 
Natoma said:
So you can be considered transgender *if* you wish to be considered transgender. And you do *not* have to have undergone *any* artificial surgery or hormone therapy to fit that bill.

Oh my.

Now, I've see it all. So we are no longer defining a "male" as someone with a penis, and a female as someone with a vagina?

If you recall, Natoma, my definition included MALES and FEMALES.

Dictionary dot com to the resuce:

male: Of, relating to, or designating the sex that has organs to produce spermatozoa for fertilizing ova.

So if you CONSIDER yourself a "transgender" that does NOT actually change your gender.

you want to argue semantics? Bring it on.

I prefer to argue with common sense. Please respond in kind.
 
Natoma said:
Fred said:
There are certain theories about why homosexuality occurs from an evolutionary standpoint, and know that its hotly contested in academia. But maybe its best if I left that can of worms closed.

Welcome to my world. :)

Btw, I know what theories you speak of with regard to evolution. I read them a couple of years ago. Some of the hypotheses are very intriguing, such as the overpopulation/population hindrance theory.

However, that wouldn't necessarily explain homosexuality in ancient times as the population of the human race was very very small, even for mammalian standards.

I'm sure you have your own views on the matter, but some famous academic whose name escapes me (tm) suggested that a useful metaphor for sexual orientation might be the language you grew up with as a child. It's not (necessarily) genetic, but it's not a choice either; it's the inexorable result of environmental cues during your formative years (and possibly in utero). You could no more "cure" someone of homosexuality than you could (or would) "cure" them of being a native French speaker, say. You might learn to speak another language, but your thoughts will always tend to what you originally grew up with.
 
I've inferred nothing. Once you wish to be considered by society as a member of the opposite sex, you are transgender, according to webster. It is you who inferred my meaning. That is not my fault. ;)

Bull S**t!
You said.....
No I'm saying that if you take a born female, and pair her up with a transgendered female (someone who was male but is now female), there is a chance of reproduction taking place.

The odds are *very* slim, but they are definitely greater than 0. Even if it is statistically small, almost infinitesimally so.
It's clear what you are saying ("someone who was male but is now female") and what your inferring. Afterall without an operation the chance of reproduction is a hell of a lot better than "statistically small, almost infinitesimally so"
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Natoma said:
So you can be considered transgender *if* you wish to be considered transgender. And you do *not* have to have undergone *any* artificial surgery or hormone therapy to fit that bill.

Oh my.

Now, I've see it all. So we are no longer defining a "male" as someone with a penis, and a female as someone with a vagina?

If you recall, Natoma, my definition included MALES and FEMALES.

Dictionary dot com to the resuce:

male: Of, relating to, or designating the sex that has organs to produce spermatozoa for fertilizing ova.

Quite right. And here is another definition which fits a certain subsect of the definition of male/female, and expands upon it. Again, it fails in no situation. If you wish to be considered transgender, then you are transgender, i.e. of the opposite sex. Thank you Webster.

Again, dictionary.com to the rescue:

Transgender:

"Appearing as, wishing to be considered as, or having undergone surgery to become a member the opposite sex."

Joe DeFuria said:
So if you CONSIDER yourself a "transgender" that does NOT actually change your gender.

See above.

Joe DeFuria said:
you want to argue semantics? Bring it on.

I prefer to argue with common sense. Please respond in kind.

Oh I tried that route and you began comparing homosexuality with beastiality. Once that happened, all gloves were off.

Now if you want to go back to common sense, then I will most certainly oblige you.
 
Silent_One said:
I've inferred nothing. Once you wish to be considered by society as a member of the opposite sex, you are transgender, according to webster. It is you who inferred my meaning. That is not my fault. ;)

Bull S**t!
You said.....
No I'm saying that if you take a born female, and pair her up with a transgendered female (someone who was male but is now female), there is a chance of reproduction taking place.

The odds are *very* slim, but they are definitely greater than 0. Even if it is statistically small, almost infinitesimally so.
It's clear what you are saying ("someone who was male but is now female") and what your inferring. Afterall without an operation the chance of reproduction is a hell of a lot better than "statistically small, almost infinitesimally so"

Again, dictionary.com to the rescue:

Transgender:

"Appearing as, wishing to be considered as, or having undergone surgery to become a member the opposite sex."

So as I told Joe, once you wish to be considered by society as a member of the opposite sex, you are a member of that sex. You are transgender.

Unless of course you want to argue with Webster. If you can somehow get the definition changed or retracted, I will admit my fault and back down. Until then, sorry.

Don't blame me. Blame English Canon. And yes, we are getting silly. But I was not the one to go down this route.

I am merely debating within the defined rules of this "game" you, Joe, V3, SirXCalibur, Vince, et al, have established. If you want to go back to the realm of common sense, I'm all for it.

And in that realm, you have no choice but to admit that homosexuality is natural. But then, if you want to lose all common sense, you'll start quoting scripture again. :LOL:
 
No. I said that his *interpretation* of the definition was flawed because it did not fit all possible scenarios, while my *interpretation* of the definition fits *all* possible scenarios.

That is why I said that his interpretation is flawed.

Definitions do not have to fit all possible scenarios Such as the natural parents of the child, or a natural death. , or Love of power is natural to some people
 
It's clear what you are saying ("someone who was male but is now female") and what your inferring. Afterall without an operation the chance of reproduction is a hell of a lot better than "statistically small, almost infinitesimally so"
 
Natoma said:
Again, dictionary.com to the rescue:

Transgender:

"Appearing as, wishing to be considered as, or having undergone surgery to become a member the opposite sex."

Um, Natoma...

Where does dictionary.com say that a transgender actually IS a member of the opposite sex. It doesn't. In fact, it says completely the opposite. By it's own definition, transgenders are NOT THE OTHER GENDER. A "female wishing to be male" meets its definition of a transgender, agreed. But by that very definition, a female wishing to be male is still a female.

In short: you can say that a female "wishing to be a male", is a transgender...but you can't say she's a male. Therefore, you can't "pair up a physically female transgender, with a male partner, and claim this is a "same sex" paring.

Logic is your friend, Natoma.

Oh I tried that route and you began comparing homosexuality with beastiality. Once that happened, all gloves were off.

Oh my, I found a little hot button, did I? Typical liberal. Let's emotions get in the way of reason.

Now if you want to go back to common sense, then I will most certainly oblige you.

I never left it...you're welcome to come back any time.
 
Joe:

If you can change definitions to fit your own interpretations and be a mule about it, so can I.

p.s.:

Dictionary.com to the rescue again:

Gender:

"Sexual identity, especially in relation to society or culture.

The condition of being female or male; sex.
Females or males considered as a group: expressions used by one gender. "

Trans:

"Change; transfer

Across; on the other side"

Thus, Trans + Gender = Change Sexual Identity. Change condition of female to other state, i.e. male. Change condition of male to other state, i.e. female.

Logic is certainly my friend.
 
Natoma said:
Joe:

If you can change definitions to fit your own interpretations and be a mule about it, so can I.

The difference is, I prove how your "interpretations" are not an interpretation at all. It's misrepresenting the facts.

(For example, dictionary.com being a source for "wishing to be the opposite sex" equates to being the opposite sex, when all it equates to is being transgender.

Who's being the mule here, Natoma?

Am I being a mule and not accepting your definition of natural as valid?

Your hypocricy is so thick here that I can cut it with a knife...
 
Joe DeFuria said:
The problem with your analysis, is that I am not "arbitrarily" defining the A and B populations for convenience. The debate is about sexuality. Males and females (groups A and B) are in fact defined by their physical sexual organs.

As stated above. Theorem 2 logically separates individuals by the pyhsical charateristics that define sexual gender.

First, I applaud you for continuing that argument within its established terms. Having said that...

Actually, the debate is about sexual relationships. Assuming that the only salient fact about sexual relationships is the body parts that each participant has does presuppose your conclusion.

You privilege reproduction in your discussion. Why would dividing based on gender make more sense than dividing based on fertility? Theorem 4:
Code:
[Theorem 1] where populations A + B each consist of all members of a single species that have the same ability to participate in the conception of children

If everyone in A was fertile, and everyone in B was infertile, then you would conclude that no sex between a fertile and an infertile person could be "natural", while if you made both A + B the set of fertile individuals than you would conclude that any sexual relationship between fertile individuals (regardless of gender) would be "natural". Fertility is as much a physical condition as gender, and is certainly extremely relevant to your original premise. Why would you prefer Theorem 2 over Theorem 4? How many additional assumptions about the nature of the "debate" do you need to make before your divisions start to make sense?

No, you'll need a better reason for insisting on the epistemology you prefer. If I were you, I would just give up on Theorem 1 altogether.
 
Joe DeFuria said:
Natoma said:
Joe:

If you can change definitions to fit your own interpretations and be a mule about it, so can I.

The difference is, I prove how your "interpretations" are not an interpretation at all. It's misrepresenting the facts.

Really? Where please.

Joe DeFuria said:
(For example, dictionary.com being a source for "wishing to be the opposite sex" equates to being the opposite sex, when all it equates to is being transgender.

Who's being the mule here, Natoma?

Please see the p.s. in the post you quoted. I added it apparently after you responded.

Joe DeFuria said:
Am I being a mule and not accepting your definition of natural as valid?

Indeed. Because I stated that your interpretation of the definition was *flawed* because it does not fill all circumstances.

Joe DeFuria said:
Your hypocricy is so thick here that I can cut it with a knife...

Ditto.
 
antlers said:
First, I applaud you for continuing that argument within its established terms. Having said that...

Always willing to do so. Unfortunately, I have to leave now and go home. :)

With my daughter's (who was naturally conceived and birthed, by the way. :D ) 1 year old birthday party on Sunday, I may not have immediate time to respond. I WILL attempt to continue this particular argument, but forgive me if it's a day or so before I can get back to it....
 
antlers said:
Joe DeFuria said:
antlers said:
I respect your right to define "natural" and "unnatural" any way you choose, for religious or other reasons. However, you shouldn't delude yourself that facts or logic support a judgment that arises from your own prejudice.

Tell that to Natoma...

Does "as found in nature" arise from prejudice? I thought it arose from the dictionary...

Are homosexual families found in nature? If not then whatever Theorem 2 is an un-natural phenomena.

The natural family is one that results in offspring, otherwise you are not talking about a family at all but rather a couple. Theorem 3 is not specific enough, all you do is suggest that A+B = species..... In which case you don't need A + B.., simply the word species.

But you are not using gender specific symbols.. Here is a better breakdown. This is so simplistic it isn't funny. BTW I find your code… confusing and really not indicative of the matter at hand.

A=female
B=Male

A+A = couple - sterile - No possible offspring.

B+B=couple - sterile - No possible offspring.

A+B=couple *and* also a potential family as a result of offspring.

A+B is distinct in that it may reproduce and produce offspring resulting in the natural family that all humans in nature are derived from.

Reproduction within a mammalian species is natural, therefore male and female relationships are natural.

homosexual reproduction in a mammalian species is un-natural (does not occur.), therefore homosexual relations are un-natural.

All mammalian species require male and female to reproduce this is our nature.
 
Sabastian said:
Are homosexual families found in nature? If not then whatever Theorem 2 is an un-natural phenomena.

Yes. Male geese have been known to partner for life, for instance. Therefore, homosexual families are natural.
 
Only someone with a distinct ignorance of sexual reproduction would claim that homosexual relationship can result in the natural birth of a child based on the combined genetic make-up of the individuals in question.

ROFL!
So that's what I was claiming!

Please review what I stated before you make outrageous statements that bear no resemblance whatsoever to what I said. Because the above statement certainly does not. Nowhere did I claim that homosexual acts will result in childbirth in homo sapiens. To claim that I did is very disappointing and not accurate in any way.
_______

Homosexual acts occur with high frequency among the great apes, in nature.

Sexual acts that do not result in childbirth are not inherently unnatural unless you dynamically reassign the definition of "unnatural" with regard
to sexual acts to mean "sexual acts that do not result in reproduction".

Which is of course, ridiculous given the rate at which humans reproduce in purely heterosexual situations.

An overwhelming portion of all human heterosexual encounters DO NOT RESULT IN CHILDBIRTH, even in the case of completely unprotected sex.

Even when the gametes do manage to fuse, a great deal of the time the offspring does not emerge from the womb.

Indeed, if you dynamically redefine your definition in this context to mean "sexual acts between oposite sexes that could potentially and likely result in the production of offspring" then protected heterosexual sex must be "unnatural", as must anal and oral sex. While this fortuitously partially agrees with the opinion of the Catholic church, I don't see it as particularly valid or defensible.

Of course, one could always use "unnatural" in the social context, whereas homosexual acts deviate from idiosyncratic social norms (which of course vary dramatically from society to society). That's fine and dandy.

Some apes / monkeys also kill their own too (children included), seemingly as a display of power. I guess because that's "natural", that should be accepted practice in the Human race as well...

What an amusing argumentative tack you have! Did I suggest that all actions made by simians in the wild should be considered acceptable practice for humans in a "free" society?


NO, I DIDN'T. I was commenting on what is natural, in terms of the standard, "natural" definition. Your "unnatural" definition of "unnatural" was not expounded upon.

"Accepted practice" (not AS&P presumably) in human cultures vary dramatically, and is often sculpted by often laughable religious proscriptions. But this is neither here nor there.

In the more "enlightened" Western societies we have a tendency to allow a certain amount of what is called "freedom" (freee-dohm, sound it out with me....) for our citizenry. In short, if actions do not infringe greatly upon the "rights" of others, they are typically well tolerated if not entirely protected. Sexual acts of any sort occuring between consenting adults are almost always considered legal. Significant portions of the population that do not engage in homosexual acts engage in deviant sexual practices, which are also protected with the same caveat.

Therefore, to equate sexual acts performed by consenting adults (legal, tolerated) to child murder (illegal, not tolerated) is downright sad. There are literally hundreds of thousands of different analogies one could have made, but unpsurprisingly, you chose this one.

Perhaps the next time you utilize a personal, non-standard definition of "unnatural", you should state it UP FRONT. This was not done here, and indeed your definition is so very non-standard, that to castigate me for not addressing it specifically when YOU HAVENT bothered to state how it differs from the standard definition is pretty damn counterproductive.

Regardless, constraining governmental (no one is forcing religions to do this) definitions of marriage to what YOU define as "natural" is a limitation that I see as entirely contrived, particularly since you declined to state your definition up front. Homo sapiens have no trouble whatsoever reproducing when homosexual conduct is accepted, embraced or considered normal or even laudable.

Recognizing adult homosexual unions by allowing the same treatment under tax law seems only reasonable. Proposing that homosexuals are apt to be more promiscuous in the context of a governmentally recognized marriage is irrelevant - large numbers of hetereosexual couples engage in "open marriages" which are governmentally recognized, if not "natural" :rolleyes: :D
 
Natoma said:
Sabastian said:
Are homosexual families found in nature? If not then whatever Theorem 2 is an un-natural phenomena.

Yes. Male geese have been known to partner for life, for instance. Therefore, homosexual families are natural.

But they are not a family, they are a couple and never mind the fact that they are not mammalian.
 
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