Busted Bars Suing Underage Drinkers

[epicstruggle]

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,93222,00.html
Bars who are busted by police for serving to underage patrons are suing them for componsation. The owners feel that since they were tricked into letting them in with fake ids, that this is their only recorce.

This is my favorite quote from one of those being sued:

Kate said that she just wants to get the trial over with, but is miffed that she's being charged.

"I feel like I made my mistake and I paid for it," she said. "I did my hours of service, I learned my lesson. And just because they were negligent, I don't think I should have to pay."

later
epic

 

[L233]

Who can blame them for getting fake IDs if they have to wait 'til the age of 21 just to enjoy a beer? At what age are Americans allowed to own a gun?

Who can blame the bar owner for getting fooled by fake IDs?

There are two sides to it and both are preposterous.

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

L233,

Who can blame them for getting fake IDs if they have to wait 'til the age of 21 just to enjoy a beer?

Take responsibility for your actions. I blame the person lying and giving a fake id. It is against the law. If you do it, and you get caught, you must pay the price. Big deal. /shrug (please note, I drank a bit before I was 21. I knew it was wrong legally, but morally I didn't feel it was wrong. I therefore did it, broke the law, felt ok about it, and if I got caught was willing to pay the price.)

Who can blame the bar owner for getting fooled by fake IDs?

If they take reasonable measures, then I cannot. If they look the other way I can. The hard thing is they get paid if they look the other way.

 

[Silent_One]

At what age are Americans allowed to own a gun?

federal law is 18 for shotguns and rifles, 21 for handguns. State laws vary.

 

[epicstruggle]

as long as the law prohibits those under 21 from drinking shouldnt the law be respected/followed. I seriously think that there should be changes to the current ban, but getting fake ids isnt the way to go at it.

MADD actually hurts their cause more than it helps today. There shoud be a gradual increase in the amount (how strong) of alcohol you can drink. Those under 18 can start with limited wine coolers, and other lite alcoholic drinks with some supervision. Between 18-21 only hard alcohol should be prohibited. and after 21 anything goes. Also having a scale of how drunk you can get before u get some "stiff" penalties.

This type of gradual law would take away some of the mystique/coolness of underage drinking.

later,
epic

 

[zurich]

IIRC thats how some countries in Europe do it, ~15 for wine and beer, ~19 for liquour. Smart, if you ask me.

 

[Paul]

You can die for your country but you can't drink a beer. Pretty sad.

Screw you MADD.

 

[epicstruggle]

You can die for your country but you can't drink a beer. Pretty sad.

Screw you MADD.

MADD has served a very important role in curbing drunk driving in this country. They should be given their due respect, however they now need to reasses their goals. Drinking and driving should always be a priority of theirs. But their methods should be changed. Allowing those under to start drinking earlier, but only lite alcoholic drinks. This should get teenagers from trying their best to get wasted.

later,
epic

 

[Legion]

Haven't the police and the state gov't anything better to do ie cutting down on illegal drug trafficing? this seems like such a futile waste of time.

If you ask me the should raise prices for alcohol or limit the amount of alcohol by quantity (and times in which it can be served) for "underage" drinkers instead of preventing them from drinking. they should however be allowed to drink as much as they want at home.

Lets face it, its far to easy to get ahold of alcohol. Many campuses really don't do much to prevent college students from drinking in dorms. This law needs to be adapted.

 

[Silent_One]

Allowing those under to start drinking earlier, but only lite alcoholic drinks. This should get teenagers from trying their best to get wasted.

In no way will that stop teenagers trying their best from getting wasted. Look, for those who want to get "wasted", allowing lite alcoholic drinking is a waste of time (no pun intended). When I was 18 (so long ago....) there was lite beer/wine for 18 year olds. You had to be 21 to drink "hard" stuff: regular beer, wine, and the rest.... In no way did "lite" drinks stop anyone from doing what we wanted: to get wasted. Hell, durning high school half the kids at my school were getting wasted. I also have a friend who is in a wheelchair for the rest of his life because of his own fault-DWI. He's accident was after the the graduation party (he would have been a senior the following year and was already voted by us to be class president).

This social experiment has been tried. Remember that back in the 1970's the same thing was said durning the Vietnam war, that "You can die for your country but you can't drink a beer". Law were changed, in some states you could drink anything at 18, some states you had to be 21 for "hard stuff",lite beer & wine came about, ect., ect.... What also changed was teenage drunk driving deaths went up. Teens who just recently got their driving license and have little driving experience now also got the right to drink. It was a recipe for disaster. And thats what happened. We have enough problems in this country with regards to drunk driving, lets not add more deaths to it by lowering the drinking age.

Look, your underage and you want to drink? Fine, I can't (personally) stop you. Just stay the f**k out of the car!

 

[kyleb]

in germany it was 16 for beer and wine and 18 for the hardstuff. also 18 to drive and like 3000dm for a licence, with very harsh punishment for drinking and driveing and other dangerous driveing as well. that seems to work pretty well from what i saw.

 

[epicstruggle]

id like to see drinking lite alcoholics at an earlier age. I belive that once people get used to getting a bit buzzed that they wont abuse alcohol. I might be wrong but it might be worth a try.

this is what id like to see done:

Those under 18 can start with limited wine coolers, and other lite alcoholic drinks with some supervision. Between 18-21 only hard alcohol should be prohibited. and after 21 anything goes. Also having a scale of how drunk you can get before u get some "stiff" penalties.

later,
epic

 

[Silent_One]

epicstruggle wrote:

Those under 18 can start with limited wine coolers, and other lite alcoholic drinks with some supervision. Between 18-21 only hard alcohol should be prohibited. and after 21 anything goes. Also having a scale of how drunk you can get before u get some "stiff" penalties.

(my bold)

Under 18? how much under 18? 16? 15? And who is going to supervise? Can I buy wine coolers if I'm under 18?

A scale for penalties...?
right now there is no scale that I'm awaire of. Public drunkeness I'm sure carries a fine and varies state to state. DWI carries a fine which varys state to state and is based upon on a blood-alcohol level.

Responsible drinking is not a experence learned from "getting a bit buzzed". Look at "Kate", was she acting responsibly? Binging on campus is a big problem today. Their underage, their catching a "buzz', and what have they learned? Their drinking to get drunk. Maybe "Kate" will now act more responsibly and wait untill she's 21.

 

[epicstruggle]

i think a glass or two of wine between 14-15 to 18 seems ok to me. Supervision of a parent.

Sometimes europeans do things better than we do. I think how they have their drinking laws is a bit better now than ours. If there is evidence to the contrary, please enlighten me as i have not hear any negatives.

thanks
epic

 

[Dr. Ffreeze]

ericstruggle,

Sometimes europeans do things better than we do. I think how they have their drinking laws is a bit better now than ours.

I have wondered about this, but how much of this is their culture? In America I would guess much drinking is to rebel. Is drinking done much in Europe to rebel also?

Dr. Ffreeze

 

[jvd]

Eh . Let kids start drinking at 14 and driving at 18 . That wya they have 4 years to get it out of thier system.

 

[Silent_One]

If there is evidence to the contrary, please enlighten me as i have not hear any negatives.

Just a quick look using Google and found this (many others but will look later).....

"European Alcoholism and Drug Abuse Perceptions"
http://www.geocities.com/bourbonstreet/2640/topic.htm

It was stated that the legal drinking age in Belgium is 16. However, the legal driving age is 18. All professors indicated that alcohol consumption is seen as part of the Belgian culture. There is no negative stereotype attached to the act of drinking. In fact, wine and/or beer was served to our class during lunch and dinner at almost every meal. U.S. culture generally prohibits serving alcohol to students at lunch and dinner unless it is requested. One professor remarked that children are exposed to alcohol at an early age in order to reduce the excitement and glamour that could be associated with drinking. It is believed that by exposing children (age 10 - 17) to alcohol, they will be less likely to experiment with and abuse it when they get older.
.
One of the professors was noticeably perplexed by my questions. When she was asked about the prevalence of alcoholism in Belgium, she responded, "you don’t see any drunks in the streets do you?" Her response indicated that alcohol abuse is not a problem in Belgium. However, in an earlier discussion, the same professor indicated that there had been an increasing amount of alcohol related driving deaths on Belgian highways. She stated that the government was beginning to toughen up drunk driving laws

Ms. Versteeg also noted that the drinking age is 16 in Holland like it is in Belgium, but that "no one" checks for ID’s. She stated that children as young as 11 and 12 would have no problem being served beer or liquor at a local bar or liquor store. Ms. Versteeg and her colleagues were familiar with the concept of alcohol and drug treatment, but could not indicate the name of one treatment center in Belgium, the Netherlands or Europe. Ms. Versteeg’s personal opinion was that drug laws in Holland are too liberal and drug use is too prevalent. She stated that there is a significant number of Dutch citizens who believe Holland’s laws are doing more harm than good. She cites the increase in drunk driving accidents in Holland and Belgium as evidence of the harm alcohol and drugs cause.

Summary Personal interviews with Belgian and Holland natives seemed to support statistical research with regard to the prevalence and liberalization of alcohol and drug use norms, laws and national trends. Europe seems to be moving in the direction of "harm reduction" strategies by making "soft drugs" legal and increasing opportunities for treatment. Although statistics on drunk driving deaths in Europe were not found, personal accounts of increasing traffic fatalities seemed to indicate that it is becoming more of a problem. .
There was a definite lack of knowledge about the availability and function of alcohol and drug treatment services by the persons interviewed. In addition, there also seemed to be strong stereotypes of alcoholics and alcoholism. More than one doctoral level professor equated alcoholism with someone who is publicly intoxicated and poorly mannered. This stereotype is based on ignorance of the disease of addiction. Most alcoholics (and addicts) are employed, have families and are not perceived as alcoholic or addicted by others. In addition, most alcoholics would never publicly drink in the streets. Belgium’s all encompassing welfare state would even prevent "publicly drunken alcoholics" from having to live or drink in the streets. Belgium’s comprehensive welfare system covers 99.9% of the population.

 

[Mariner]

I'm sorry, but drinking alcohol and drunk driving are two totally different subjects and you can't lump them all into one argument.

I, personally, did drink when underage and unsupervised (going to parties and drinking a fair amount between the ages of say 12 and 16). Started going to pubs at the age of 17 (legal drinking age is 18 in the UK) and now I'm 30, I still go out most weekends with my friends and, it must be said, drink a hell of a lot more now than when I was 18. When I was younger (ages 8 upwards) I was often allowed a small glass of wine with a meal by my parents, only on special occasions, though. From the age of 11 upwards I had the odd glass of beer, again with my parents.

I've been driving since I was 17 and never once have I driven whilst under the influence, even though I did drink underage. Oddly enough, none of my friends or, indeed, anyone I know has been caught drunk driving even though most like a drink. All my friends also drank underage, some to a much greater degree than myself.

Simply stated, in my opinion, driving while drunk should be considered an entirely different topic to underage drinking. I can't see how you can argue that drinking when younger (and not legally able to drive) makes you more prone to driving under the influence!

 

[epicstruggle]

I'm sorry, but drinking alcohol and drunk driving are two totally different subjects and you can't lump them all into one argument.
....
Simply stated, in my opinion, driving while drunk should be considered an entirely different topic to underage drinking. I can't see how you can argue that drinking when younger (and not legally able to drive) makes you more prone to driving under the influence!

I got my permit when I was 15 and my license when 16 (unrestricted). Although I do not drink, having a license and able to go to parties ment I drove my self there and back. Had I wanted to drink at these parties I could and then I would be drinving while intoxicated.

The 2 issues are related. If you can drive then your also able to get drinks (legally or illegally). Teenagers are not know for their wisdom.

later,

 

[Silent_One]

Mariner wrote:

Simply stated, in my opinion, driving while drunk should be considered an entirely different topic to underage drinking. I can't see how you can argue that drinking when younger (and not legally able to drive) makes you more prone to driving under the influence!

I don't argue that the underage drinking of a person who is not legally able to drive is more prone to drive under the influence.
I argue that lowering the drinking age results in more traffic accidents and deaths. Primarly IMHO this is due to the inexperence of the young drivers, although irresponsible drinking (drinking to "catch a buzz") plays a heavy role. Heres what I said in regards to lowering the drink age:

What also changed was teenage drunk driving deaths went up. Teens who just recently got their driving license and have little driving experience now also got the right to drink. It was a recipe for disaster. And thats what happened.

In other words inexperenced drivers and booze don't mix. Accident death rate of teenagers went up when age limit for drinking was lowered. Here are some statistics for the USA:

http://www.cspinet.org/booze/mlpafact.htmIn 1984,

Congress passed the National Minimum Purchase Age Act, to encourage each state to enact a minimum legal purchase age (MLPA) of 21 by 1986. The result was impressive: an estimated 1,071 lives were saved in 1987 alone. From 1975 - 1996, the estimated number of lives saved reached nearly 17,000.(2) In addition to a 63% decline in alcohol-related crash fatalities among young drivers since 1982, findings show that the MLPA has decreased the number of DWI arrests, youth suicides, marijuana use, crime, and alcohol consumption by youth.(3,4)


Youth Alcohol Consumption

High school seniors who could not legally drink until age 21 drank less before age 21 and between ages 21 - 25 than did seniors in states with lower drinking ages.(5,6)

Similarly, a national survey of 16 - 21 year-olds found that teens from states with a higher MLPA drank less frequently.(7)

The 1978 National Study of Adolescent Drinking Behavior found that 10th - 12th graders in states with lower drinking ages drank significantly more, were less likely to abstain from alcohol, and were drunk more often than students in states with a drinking age of 21.(8 )

A study of New York college students documented that students who began drinking at younger ages were more likely to drink heavily in college. They were also more likely to report alcohol-related problems such as trouble at work, with friends, family, and police.(9)

The behavior of 18 year-olds is particularly influential on youth ages 15 - 17, as young people typically imitate the practices of those who are slightly older, rather than the practices of those who are significantly older.(10)
Therefore, if 18 year-olds can legally drink, their immediate, younger peers will drink too.

Fatalities, Crashes, and DWI Arrests

State motor vehicle fatality data from the 48 continental states found that lowering the MLPA for beer from 21 to 18 during the 1970s resulted in an 11% increase in fatalities among this age group.(11)

An Arizona Department of Public Safety report found that fatal accidents increased over 25% while traffic fatalities increased more than 35% after the state MLPA was lowered from 21 to 19.(12)

A Michigan study found that police reports of “had been drinkingâ€￾ crashes increased 35%, while the incidence of nighttime single-vehicle crashes among young men increased 17% after the state reduced its MLPA from 21 to 18.(13)

Another Michigan study found that DWI arrests increased 141% for 18 - 20 year-olds after the state lowered the MLPA. Roadside surveys showed that the proportion of 16 - 20 year-old drivers with blood alcohol concentrations (BAC) over .05 more than doubled.(14)

Unfortunately so far I have been having difficulty finding any studies regarding the increase in drunk driving traffic accidents in European countries due to the lowering of the drinking age, since the drinking age is already low in the first place
.

Mariner wrote:

I've been driving since I was 17 and never once have I driven whilst under the influence, even though I did drink underage. Oddly enough, none of my friends or, indeed, anyone I know has been caught drunk driving even though most like a drink. All my friends also drank underage, some to a much greater degree than myself.

(my bold)

I'm glad you don't drive while under the influence. That is the Responsible thing to do. I wish more people were like you in that regard. I hope you do not, however, get in the car with your friends when they drink and drive, even though none of your friends have "been caught drunk driving"!!