Bitboys Delivers! ;)

[Nappe1]

But let's get to the technical point: 2*2 at 200MHz sounds to me like 90nm or smaller, correct?

well, amount of pipelines isn't actually told.
(I have some off the record knowledge, but it's better wait if company themselves talks about this.)

quoted Max clock rate is in the comparison table said to be TSMC 0.13µm process. ( check the last line in the table. So that should give you the idea what's the deal with max textures per pixel (Single Pass number?) and also the fill rate.)


EDIT: it's TSMC, not TMSC

I'm a layman, yet 130nm and 200MHz sounds quite a tad on the high power consumption side to me (or else someone correct me if I'm wrong). Sounds most likely that the core can yield that max frequency with 130nm, while it can go a fair bit higher and is actually meant for 90nm?

well, here we come to point where there's no actual specifications available, unless you sign an NDA with the company. The Power Consumption and transistor / gate budget values are available only under the NDA.

(why I won't even speculate with those. it is no use of telling anything you don't have a raw public fact to stand on.)


EDIT:
and by the way... Ailuros, where you took that it will take X amount of time to get G40 working?

at least the press release says "All products are available immediately for licensing." (more about what you get on license deal: http://www.bitboys.fi/licensing.php )

how that's a different from MBX right now? :?

 

[finsider]

and by the way... Ailuros, where you took that it will take X amount of time to get G40 working?

at least the press release says "All products are available immediately for licensing." (more about what you get on license deal: http://www.bitboys.fi/licensing.php )

how that's a different from MBX right now? :?

Guys, you are both correct in your own ways. This is a business, where the final hardware is only there after first a licensing deal, then the design of the overall integrated product, then manufacturing and finally making it work as a part of a device. So, as Nappe1 says, one has to be careful here, not to confuse things. A manufacturer can not just choose between MBX and BB product, the whole processor has to be designed based on what IP blocks you have in there. OpenGL ES does not mean that the IP Cores would fit in same spaces or even identical interfaces or use them in an identical manner. Especially in these challenging environments, where power and size is everything.

Us consumers will never be likely have the option of choosing which graphics processor to have in our phone. It is going to be first the manufacturers who choose the cores into their chips and finally the device manufacturers who choose the processor. But knowing how long this process is, the choices for products that we might have in our hands first sometime in 2006 are being made about now.

So, let's congratulate Bitboys that they are advancing, and wait for more news on the deals through the foodchain.

Also note, that NEC did already implement one BB core in to their hardware product and licensed a second one for implementation. We do not know when this is finally available, but it shows that BB can deliver and to the satisfaction of a customer.

 

[Nappe1]

Finsider: nooooo, don't wreck the promising flamefest (same as flamewar)... I was just starting to get on full speed.

 

[Pottsey]

How does the new chip supported maximum texture size of 1024x1024 compare to the MBX? What can the MBX pull off?

Not that it matters as a texture size of 1024x1024 is overkill for a small mobile screen that runs at low resolution with limited storage space.

 

[Pottsey]

Quote:
BitBoys Sue Themselves -- 10:20 am CST, Update by A.T. Hun

Amid the lawsuit frenzy, BitBoys were feeling a bit out of the loop. Sadly, they could not sue anyone for stealing their technology due to the fact that, at present, it does not exist. So they decided to make a bold move and sue themselves. Industry analysts indicate that this will not affect BitBoys' shipping schedule in the least inasmuch as it, like their technology, does not exist

http://www.thehaus.net/index.php?ent=2057

I came across this on another fourm.

 

[Xmas]

Flipquad? Ah, well, at least better than Quincunx

 

[Ailuros]

so, you want compare G40 with MBX2?
okay, fine with me. G40 can be licensed right now, MBX2 not. though it will take X amount of time to get G40 based product out of the owen, it's still Y amount of less time (where Y is the time between G40 and MBX2 launches) than MBX2, if you look at the time from here to product availability.

and what's the schedule for MBX2 or Imageon2? this year? next year? it took exactly 12 months to come from G30 to G40, so I don't see a reason why following generation Acceleons wouldn't be available for licensing in August 2005. (this is a plain speculation of course.)

I don't see where your problem exactly is understanding what I meant. MBX and first generation Acceleon can be implemented immediately in devices today and for quite some time now.

Yes G40 can be licensed but it'll take time until it'll show up in final products as it generally happens in this market.

okay, fine with me. G40 can be licensed right now, MBX2 not. though it will take X amount of time to get G40 based product out of the owen, it's still Y amount of less time (where Y is the time between G40 and MBX2 launches) than MBX2, if you look at the time from here to product availability.

Not a single doubt. IMG employees have given a couple of generic answers in public interviews about their next generation plans, yet apart from that nothing else is known. Can we get on some common ground about first generation 3D mobile and second generation mobile chips? MBX belongs to the first batch and not to the second.

and by the way... Ailuros, where you took that it will take X amount of time to get G40 working?

Where did I even mention anything about getting anything to work? There's an obvious difference between an FPGA chip and final silicon and there's always a reasonable amount of transition time between the first to the latter. That transition time cannot be escaped by BB or anyone else.

how that's a different from MBX right now?

See above. MBX is available in silicon for over a year now, has been licensed by X amount of partners and is about to ship in real products anytime soon, if it hasn't already and I've missed it.

So, let's congratulate Bitboys that they are advancing, and wait for more news on the deals through the foodchain.

Also note, that NEC did already implement one BB core in to their hardware product and licensed a second one for implementation. We do not know when this is finally available, but it shows that BB can deliver and to the satisfaction of a customer.

I never said or implied otherwise. The advancements are clear and I noted them already.

Yet that's a totally different story and is entirely unrelated to any possible competitive products, especially if those have proven their success so far.

Finsider: nooooo, don't wreck the promising flamefest (same as flamewar)... I was just starting to get on full speed.

Uhmmm what flamewar anyway? Semiconductors will license in the future what they consider to be the most compelling offering. I haven't placed any bets with any bookmakers on the other hand. How about a different POV on reality: if IMG doesn't wake up soon enough, I don't consider it unlikely at all that they might end up losing deals to the competition. The question is if they're sitting idle or not.

Flipquad? Ah, well, at least better than Quincunx

I dispise anything that contains a blur filter; on the other hand though it's more than good enough for small embedded devices. I wonder if the new chips support a fast adaptive anisotropic algorithm (2x sample would be more than enough IMHO).

Granted MBX has AF in it's feature-list, yet if it's the same Series2/3 algorithm I don't think I want to hear much about it, for obvious reasons.

 

[PC-Engine]

How does the new chip supported maximum texture size of 1024x1024 compare to the MBX? What can the MBX pull off?

Not that it matters as a texture size of 1024x1024 is overkill for a small mobile screen that runs at low resolution with limited storage space.

Highend mobile graphics chips have the advantage of being able to produce high quality output to an external display device. For example if you have a highend mobile graphics chip in your PDA device that can output to say a PC monitor or TV, it would be a very good thing. However if you have a lowend mobile graphics chip, it would probably look real ugly blown up on a TV or PC screen. I think it's fantastic that both PowerVR and BB have highend offerings. The mobile market is growing quite nicely and fairly soon every cellphone that already has a digital camera will also have a 3D graphics chip. I think the highend chips will be more at home in PDAs though.

 

[rake]

See above. MBX is available in silicon for over a year now, has been licensed by X amount of partners and is about to ship in real products anytime soon, if it hasn't already and I've missed it.

At IMG's AGM they stated that MBX is now shipping in two forms.

Firstly Renesas are now shipping in-car navigation parts. This is the SH-7770 solution with named OEMs of Pioneer and Mitsubishi.

Secondly the first MBX mobile part is now shipping. IMG will not go on record what this is, but it is widely believed to be the Intel 2700G part which will be shipping in the Asus MyPal A730 PDA, review here

Rake

 

[Simon F]

Flipquad? Ah, well, at least better than Quincunx

Presumably they must have licensed it from Ericsson/Sony. (see Patent WO2004057538: "LOW-COST SUPERSAMPLING RASTERIZATION" )

 

[Ailuros]

I think it's fantastic that both PowerVR and BB have highend offerings. The mobile market is growing quite nicely and fairly soon every cellphone that already has a digital camera will also have a 3D graphics chip. I think the highend chips will be more at home in PDAs though.

Copy that.

Not only PDAs for the high end models; high volume/low speced Arcade also as in hopefully pure handheld gaming devices.

I'd love to see either a MBX PRO+VGP or a G40 in a PSP competing product in the foreseeable future. Granted power consumption and size will always keep the embedded graphics market behind the PC, yet the first seems to be evolving extremely fast.

Rake,

I think Intel is the only one that hasn't been using a VGP, while the others have.

Simon,

I thought Flipquad or Fliptri are actually Multisampling approaches? (no haven't read the patent yet).

 

[Daliden]

Not that it matters as a texture size of 1024x1024 is overkill for a small mobile screen that runs at low resolution with limited storage space.

Well, I suppose you could use a 1024x1024 texture for storing game graphics; just display whichever part is relevant. Or use it as terrain and scroll around.

 

[Joe DeFuria]

Ahhh... ImgTech vs. BitBoys fanb*y wars...such a refreshing change from ATI vs. nVidia.

 

[JohnH]

Hmm, is there any written statement anywhere that G40 is available for licensing now i.e. they can ship RTL to customer for synthesis/product integration? There's an announcment that they've licensed G34, and they've annouced new cores but nothing on actual IP availability. Or are they demonstaring G40 in FPGA form?

Cheers,
John

 

[Nappe1]

Hmm, is there any written statement anywhere that G40 is available for licensing now i.e. they can ship RTL to customer for synthesis/product integration?

as staying completely on public facts, here ya go:

http://www.bitboys.com/news_events.php?action=read&id=10082004a

*snip*
"With our new processor range, we are able to offer our customers a complete graphics solution that includes not only a fully-featured graphics processor, but also optimized software drivers to support application developers. Our processors have been specifically designed to provide a blend of size, performance, power consumption and price that is optimally suited for mass-market products," said Mr. Mikko Saari, CEO, Bitboys.

The new Bitboys product line covers the entire range of mobile phone platforms, with special attention devoted to developing efficient graphics cores for volume-market wireless and embedded devices. All products are available immediately for licensing.
*snip*

http://www.bitboys.com/licensing.php

*snip*
2. Evaluation
Product evaluation is an essential part of the Bitboys licensing process. We want our customer to fully understand our product and its capabilities before committing to using it. We recognize that typically the graphics processor is only one piece in a large puzzle, the development of a full SoC, but it is however an equal risk factor in the design.

There are various evaluation levels available. Typically first evaluation is done by using a behavioral software model, which allows the customer to perform bit-accurate simulation of the graphics processor, together with software drivers. This unique evaluation possibility allows the customer to see the product in action already very early in the development process.

Also the RTL code is available for evaluation. This allows the customer to synthesize and analyze the actual hardware implementation of the core, and also analyze its performance in a SoC system. The RTL code is bit-exact with the behavioral software model.

3. Licensing
Before signing the license agreement, the final project and core specification are reviewed. A final commitment to the delivery schedule is also made at this point.

4. Delivery
In addition to customer-specific components the Bitboys delivery package always contains the following standard components:

Graphics processor IP core

- Graphics processor IP core RTL-code
- Synthesis scripts for Synopsys Design Compiler
-Static timing analysis scripts for Synopsys Primetime
- Test bench and test vectors
- RTL integration test
- A bit-accurate SystemC software model (soft-IP)
The RTL-code and the software model are fully validated and verified components. Bitboys enforces a very strict verification coverage metrics to ensure high product quality. The software model is validated against standard graphics APIs and reference implementations.


*snip*

 

[Nappe1]

Flipquad? Ah, well, at least better than Quincunx

Presumably they must have licensed it from Ericsson/Sony. (see Patent WO2004057538: "LOW-COST SUPERSAMPLING RASTERIZATION" )

another thing that we have to wait for a official statement. (Still, this is not the only thing you can find to be related to patents outside the company.)

 

[no_way]

Hm .. great .. but does it run Doom3 ?

 

[Nappe1]

Hm .. great .. but does it run Doom3 ?

that's an interesting question.

 

[K.I.L.E.R]

Does it kill a Voodoo 5?

Hurry and bench it.

 

[JohnH]

Hmm, is there any written statement anywhere that G40 is available for licensing now i.e. they can ship RTL to customer for synthesis/product integration?

as staying completely on public facts, here ya go:

http://www.bitboys.com/news_events.php?action=read&id=10082004a

*snip*
"With our new processor range, we are able to offer our customers a complete graphics solution that includes not only a fully-featured graphics processor, but also optimized software drivers to support application developers. Our processors have been specifically designed to provide a blend of size, performance, power consumption and price that is optimally suited for mass-market products," said Mr. Mikko Saari, CEO, Bitboys.

The new Bitboys product line covers the entire range of mobile phone platforms, with special attention devoted to developing efficient graphics cores for volume-market wireless and embedded devices. All products are available immediately for licensing.
*snip*

http://www.bitboys.com/licensing.php

*snip*
2. Evaluation
Product evaluation is an essential part of the Bitboys licensing process. We want our customer to fully understand our product and its capabilities before committing to using it. We recognize that typically the graphics processor is only one piece in a large puzzle, the development of a full SoC, but it is however an equal risk factor in the design.

There are various evaluation levels available. Typically first evaluation is done by using a behavioral software model, which allows the customer to perform bit-accurate simulation of the graphics processor, together with software drivers. This unique evaluation possibility allows the customer to see the product in action already very early in the development process.

Also the RTL code is available for evaluation. This allows the customer to synthesize and analyze the actual hardware implementation of the core, and also analyze its performance in a SoC system. The RTL code is bit-exact with the behavioral software model.

3. Licensing
Before signing the license agreement, the final project and core specification are reviewed. A final commitment to the delivery schedule is also made at this point.

4. Delivery
In addition to customer-specific components the Bitboys delivery package always contains the following standard components:

Graphics processor IP core

- Graphics processor IP core RTL-code
- Synthesis scripts for Synopsys Design Compiler
-Static timing analysis scripts for Synopsys Primetime
- Test bench and test vectors
- RTL integration test
- A bit-accurate SystemC software model (soft-IP)
The RTL-code and the software model are fully validated and verified components. Bitboys enforces a very strict verification coverage metrics to ensure high product quality. The software model is validated against standard graphics APIs and reference implementations.


*snip*

A product can be available for licensing before rtl is available, for example they haven't said that all products are available for "integration" for which you need complete rtl, and if they're not demoing G40 then I suspect that they might not have it yet. The second quote is generic "how does licensing work" blurb and gives no indication of reality.
Basically this is just looks like a marketing blah to me!

John.