Baseless Next Generation Rumors with no Technical Merits [post E3 2019, pre GDC 2020] [XBSX, PS5]

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Maybe the reporter missunderstood the info that the "passive cooling" components are usually less than a dollar (excluding the fan) and maybe now with ps5 they went with a higher end notebook style heatsink (sorry, I'm not familiar with the terminology and tech of that field). one of those copper tuby tube thingies with special cooling sauce liquid inside.
 
...a heatpipe?

edit:

PS4 already used heatpipes.

Scorpio went for a wider/flatter iteration of heatpipe built into the base copper heatsink. Maybe call it a heat ravioli. :confused:
 
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...a heatpipe?

edit:

PS4 already used heatpipes.

Scorpio went for a wider/flatter iteration of heatpipe built into the base copper heatsink. Maybe call it a heat ravioli. :confused:

Yeah, you are right, I just googled ps4 heatsink pictures amd it had already got pipes in there...
Cooling isn't very much my thing.
 
I admit to not having a precise idea of this thing's price, but less than a dollar sounds really low.

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Sony clearly only spend a dollar on cooling, hence the noise. They use aluminium and copper coloured plastic, this gen they will try the real stuff.

Aluminium costs about $1.75 per kg
Copper about $5.72 per kg
Fan materials, electronics etc on top of that.
Anyone know how much PS4's heatsink weights and how much of it is copper and aluminium?
I'm wondering if you could even get the raw materials for under $1
 
Sony Is Struggling With PlayStation 5 Price Due to Costly Parts

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...-with-playstation-5-price-due-to-costly-parts

- Scarce components have pushed the manufacturing costs for Sony Corp.’s next PlayStation to around $450 per unit, forcing a difficult price-setting decision in its battle with Microsoft Corp., according to people with knowledge of the matter.

- Sony typically finalizes a console’s price in February of the release year, followed by mass production in the spring. With the PS5, the company is taking a wait-and-see approach, said the people, asking not to be named because the details are private.

- The PS4, released in 2013 at a retail price of $399, was estimated by IHS Markit to cost $381 to manufacture. With the $450 unit cost and a similar gross margin, the PlayStation 5’s retail price would have to be at least $470.

- The company’s biggest headache is ensuring a reliable supply of DRAM and NAND flash memory, with both in high demand as smartphone makers gear up for fifth-generation devices, according to people familiar with Sony’s operations.

- Sony’s Chief Executive Officer Kenichiro Yoshida has said the business should be judged by the number of active users, not the number of hardware units sold. Some Sony games staff think it should sell the new console at a loss if necessary to match Microsoft’s price, while other Sony executives would prefer to make money as the company did with the PS4.

- Most of the components for the console have been locked down, the people said, including the cooling system, which is unusually expensive at a few dollars per unit. Typically, companies would spend less than a dollar, but Sony opted to lavish more on making sure heat dissipation from the powerful chips housed inside the console isn’t an issue.

- The ongoing coronavirus outbreak has had no impact so far on preparations for PlayStation 5 production, they said. The company has yet to decided how many PlayStation 5 units it will make in the first year, they added.

- Sony executives are voicing patience about the next console’s pricing as they anticipate the transition to be a gradual one, said people familiar with its day-to-day operations. Many of the games launched for the PlayStation 5 will also be available to play on the predecessor machine, so revenue from software and related network services is expected to keep the business performance intact.

- People within the PlayStation business unit said a key factor in deciding the ultimate PlayStation 5 retail price will be where Microsoft sets its price for the next-generation Xbox Series X. Microsoft is widely expected to hold that information back until the E3 gaming expo in Los Angeles in June.

- Asked about when he expects Sony to provide guidance on the gaming business outlook for the new fiscal year, Totoki said the plan is no different from the recent past, meaning the guidance can be expected around the end of April.

Whatever. Their source's information included a BOM of the PS5, "difficult decision" and a $2 dollar cooling solution. Pretty lacking.

Either these guys find sources so far removed from the situation that they are only getting off hand remarks or they are terrible at being journalists.
 
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"!!!!FaKe NeWs!!!!"

Maybe...but a $450 BOM seems relatively accurate to me. Don't think it was going to be as low as PS4.
 
"!!!!FaKe NeWs!!!!"

Maybe...but a $450 BOM seems relatively accurate to me. Don't think it was going to be as low as PS4.
Absolutely, it's in the ballpark of most predictions we've had here and on era. As long as we assume a high clocked 36 CU, 1TB ssd, and 16GB ram. There isn't a lot of margin for a wildly different BOM.

I would guess a bit higher than 450 but the cost of gddr6 is really difficult to figure out. And we still have a lot of question marks about the storage and RT etc...
 
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I have no idea what your argument is with your numbers.

Okay then, from the start:
1 - Some users in this thread started to assume the PS5 will be close to $399 to undercut the SeriesX in price, most probably driven by the Github Gospel leak that suggests a total of 36 CUs, but also by using Sony's statements of quick transition to the new console.

2 - I pointed out a couple of slides from Sony's investor relations presentation of 2019 that says 1) the quick transition was only ever mentioned in parallel with BC and 2) they're not going after potential customers who want a lower-cost console. In fact the slide says for every 1 customer who goes for a cheaper console, 99 customers go for better services + exclusive games + features.

3 - You claimed it is unproven that Sony can use brand recognition (services + exclusives + features) over console price, like Apple does.

4 - I showed that Sony is already using brand recognition over console price, by pricing their base hardware well above Microsoft's base hardware during the last holiday sales (and even right now, to be honest).

5 - You argued that Sony doesn't have that kind of brand recognition in 2020 because in 2006 they failed to sell as many PS3 as they hoped, disregarding the fact that the last holiday sales I pointed out are significantly more representative of Sony's current brand status.

BTW, the PS3 was $600 in 2006. Adjust that for inflation and it would be the equivalent of Sony asking $767 for the PS5 in 2020. I don't think anyone is suggesting that. At least I'm not.
But there's quite a large difference between $399 and $499, or even $549.



And now there's that Bloomberg article claiming Sony is set on a $450 BoM + production costs, which seems clear to me that they won't be going after the lower-cost console selling point.



Is 1080p going to be the target res?

Just because the consoles have ray tracing hardware, it would be quite a stretch to say that everything that can be ray traced will be ray traced.
It's also not what I suggested. I said shadowmaps can be replaced with raytraced shadows on console games, and that's another of several factors that will prevent next-gen games from increasing in size.

Which game is he developing?
Mark Cerny?
Within the last 4 years:
2016 - Executive producer for The Last Guardian
2017 - Director for Knack 2
2018 - Executive producer for Spider-Man
2019 - Technical producer for Death Stranding


You think he isn't working on any game at the moment? Nor that his insights over game sizes are valuable enough?


Game sizes were never going to grow as much as they have in past gens, but I have no doubt they will grow as the generation goes on. There are going to be developers wanting to push more assets to make their 4k title the shiniest.
I challenge your conviction!
 
Mark Cerny?
Within the last 4 years:
2016 - Executive producer for The Last Guardian
2017 - Director for Knack 2
2018 - Executive producer for Spider-Man
2019 - Technical producer for Death Stranding

You think he isn't working on any game at the moment? Nor that his insights over game sizes are valuable enough?
He didn't show up any activity on PSN for almost a year except trying a small indie game. All work, no play!

Either he's in a big crunch on an undisclosed title, or he's been playing on PS5 for a year and those games obvious won't show up on his account yet.
 
Okay then, from the start:

And now there's that Bloomberg article claiming Sony is set on a $450 BoM + production costs, which seems clear to me that they won't be going after the lower-cost console selling point.

There is a lot to digest here and its not worth actually diving in, but if this was your take away you missed the entire point of the article.

The point of the article was that Sony was aiming for a lower BOM and market forces have raised the BOM for them. I mean the article isn't titled "Sony aims for $450 BOM". The entire article is detailing how they are struggling with the price because the BOM has gone up due to a shortage of parts (ie they didn't develop with $450 in mind, but the shortages have driven up the price of their components to $450)
 
3 - You claimed it is unproven that Sony can use brand recognition (services + exclusives + features) over console price, like Apple does.
Brand power only takes you so far. We know PS as a brand can sell a $400 quickly. We could even guess it could sell a $450 fairly well. As you push $500 and over, is there reason to think the brand is that strong? I argue otherwise because...

5 - You argued that Sony doesn't have that kind of brand recognition in 2020 because in 2006 they failed to sell as many PS3 as they hoped, disregarding the fact that the last holiday sales I pointed out are significantly more representative of Sony's current brand status.
...no, I argued that we already had an example of Sony leaning on their very strong brand to try and sell a more expensive console and failed. Whatever the PS brand strength is now, it's no more than it was at the end of PS2's life transitioning into PS3. If ever Sony could command a price premium, it was then.

And now there's that Bloomberg article claiming Sony is set on a $450 BoM + production costs, which seems clear to me that they won't be going after the lower-cost console selling point.
If true, of which there's plenty of reason to think it isn't. but even then, $450 BOM with a $400-450 launch price is what I'd call a lower-cost selling point. A good system at a reasonable price riding PS's strong brand could do quite well at that, I think. The argument (from me at least) is that Sony can't be interested in higher prices because that will stifle adoption which goes against their aims of a fast transition.
 
In the old gamelab interview they admitted the biggest failure of the ps3 launch was the difficulty to develop on the devs side, and the high launch price on the consumer's side. Regardless of how powerful it was.

We can clearly see how they reoriented the playstation with ps4 and continued similarly with the Pro. I.e. don't do the things you already established as the reasons for your previous failure.
 
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