Apple is an existential threat to the PC

That's not even a paraphrase of what I said. Even if it was, using quotation marks for a paraphrase without calling it out is questionable.
Old school win32 applications don't belong in normie windows user space because they can't ever get windows secure that way ... infinite hardware configurations and keeping win32 core to windows is dragging them down. Which isn't to say Microsoft should kill win32, but they should properly isolate it (throwing all win32 applications in one giant sandbox isn't proper isolation) just like Chromebooks can now isolate Linux applications.

Tooling does nothing for users if they are not provided an interface to easily use it, windows instead remains a malware target by design. Of course if they actually did that and put bug bounties on container escapes similar to Chrome web apps they'd likely go bankrupt, way too much crusty code behind win32.

That said, I was kind of assuming they could have a friendly windows with only UWP apps as the core OS, while running the rest on VMs (just like Chromebook has the core OS with web apps, with in the future SteamOS on VM). I hadn't yet noticed UWP was on the way out though, the more things change for Windows, the more things stay the same, use the new stuff and you will get fucked.

Chromebook, ignoring datamining, is shaping up to be almost everything a modern laptop/desktop should be for normies. A hardware certification model which while open to input from third party manufacturers is tightly enough controlled it gives a limited amount of platforms allowing good QA and pain free updates. A core OS which is cloud oriented to make account transfer across devices pain free. A core OS with one of the best app sandboxes in the industry, far ahead of what appcontainer can ever be due to better design not being held back by 3 decades of cruft. In the future, a VM maintained security boundary to run the most important crufty applications ... games :) That's how you make something which just werks. Please for gods sake learn to follow their example properly Microsoft, Windows SE ain't it, I don't really want a future condemned to chose between Google or Apple.
 
Last edited:
These has got to be some of the dumbest and most misinformed statements I have read, "windows instead remains a malware target by design" being the winner.
 
These has got to be some of the dumbest and most misinformed statements I have read, "windows instead remains a malware target by design" being the winner.
you're gonna look mighty foolish when the secret audio tapes leak from 1983

steve ballmer - "Ok whats our primary focus with this piece of software"
bill gates - "I think we should focus on making the OS a malware target, tell the programmers to design the OS all around this"
steve ballmer - "developers developers developers"
 
No one will care, because windows will be dead ... well outside Azure DaaS running on Macbooks any way.

For you appcontainer cheerleaders ... when do you think Microsoft will allow win32 apps to declare proper capabilities? (ie. same as UWP, without fulltrust.) Will they have a bug bounty program for appcontainer escapes on the level as the Chrome sandbox? Make some predictions when Microsoft will actually show me wrong about the woeful level of windows security, which is almost entirely reactive. The big two proactive steps forward, UWP/capabilities and the Windows 10X win32 sandbox, abandoned for the moment.
 
Last edited:
It's been a couple of years, but I'm pretty sure I started the thread on how the Chromebook which just werks and the Macbook eating all the margins (without paying back into the hardware ecosystem any more) was going to start squeezing PCs.

With Chromebooks about to get more versatile (SteamOS/Borealis) I just wanted to contrast that Microsoft abandoning it's most ambitious plans to modernize (Windows 10x) and retrenching on good old win32 with rather minimal changes. What is Microsoft's answer to Chromebooks? The crippled Windows 11 SE which doesn't even have the Microsoft store ... it's as much windows as the xbox (which doesn't mean it can't be successful, but it's more about getting kids hooked on Office than windows and Office runs on Macbooks too).
 
Last edited:
What is Microsoft's answer to Chromebooks?
Microsoft's answer to Chromebooks is the Surface line of devices. And despite what you might think, Surface devices are doing quite well in their sales demographics. Perhaps you haven't been out looking recently?

Or maybe you meant to ask a different question?

EDIT: Because I figure you'll say something stupid about the sales:
Microsoft Surface FY21 Q3 revenue is up 12% from last year with a solid $1.5B in rev | Windows Central

Chromebook sales fall hard in Q3 as education market becomes saturated | TechCrunch

Want to know why Surface FY21 Q3 sales are even more astonishing? Because at the very same time that Surface found that 12% uptick, the entirety of PC sales globally fell 2% Canalys Newsroom - Global PC market down 2% in Q3 2021 but shipments still well above pre-pandemic levels

EDIT #2: From that first linked article:
Windows 10 OEM revenue is also up 10%, driven by solid consumer PC demand (Pro licenses were down by 2%, but non-Pro revenue is up a staggering 44%).
Yeah man, Windows is just completely shitting itself right? Obviously that whole Windows thing is just flushing straight down the tubes!
 
Last edited:
Microsoft's answer to Chromebooks is the Surface line of devices.
Which helped them little in education, where Chromebook made its main playground ... which is where Windows 11 SE comes in, a cloud based Windows, unfortunately entirely divorced from the normal windows ecosystem. Windows doesn't build on top of SE, they can't currently offer a rock steady SE to normal consumers with win32 on top. It's like xbox, hanging on the side being a distraction (took Microsoft decades to realise they could not afford to promote the xbox over windows, but better late than never).

I guess it's possible that SE for education is just going to stealthily transform into a new version of 10x. That would be the best case scenario, offering a cloud centric OS core and collection of apps is the best way currently for Microsoft to differentiate themselves from Apple who seems a bit slow on the uptake in that regard.
And despite what you might think, Surface devices are doing quite well in their sales demographics. Perhaps you haven't been out looking recently?
Macbook steadily growing and Chromebook retrenching. Changes little about my future outlook.

Salesnumbers don't make win32 without a capability based security system any more secure/private for users, it doesn't make the continuous ditching of slightly more ambitious schemes such as UWP/10x any more excusable. Even ignoring that, lets say Surface slowly takes over entirely from third party Windows hardware so Microsoft can finally target their QA a little tighter, is that really supposed to be good for PCs? I don't want Microsoft to be a second Apple.
The most current version of Intel's Alder Lake ULV processors seems just fine taking on Apple's M1 processors. Maybe we can continue down this line?
M1 Macbook technical endurance prowess already was more marketing than reality even before Alder Lake. 12 hour+ screen time was already achieved for Athena ultrabooks and when Windows wasn't acting up, I'm sure current generation Evo will improve it further ... Windows 11 on the other hand seems to have some problems with battery life on older hardware.
 
Last edited:
Seems a fair statement to me! The most current version of Intel's Alder Lake ULV processors seems just fine taking on Apple's M1 processors. Maybe we can continue down this line?

Great!

I hope I didn't come across as snarky in my post. I genuinely did enjoy the discussion. :)

I think Alder Lake does well against M1 Pro/Max (from a CPU performance perspective), but only if you look past performance-per-watt. M1, I think, is still unrivalled in its and I think a big part of that is due to the 4 efficiency cores (as opposed to just 2 efficiency cores on M1 Pro/Max). I don't think any website has done a thorough head-to-head comparison on the performance-per-watt numbers for ADL vs M1 Pro/Max.

M1 Macbook technical endurance prowess already was more marketing than reality even before Alder Lake. 12 hour+ screen time was already achieved for Athena ultrabooks and when Windows wasn't acting up, I'm sure current generation Evo will improve it further ... Windows 11 on the other hand seems to have some problems with battery life on older hardware.

I'm not so sure on this. Reviews have been quite clear about its performance-per-watt figures:
https://www.anandtech.com/show/17024/apple-m1-max-performance-review

https://www.anandtech.com/show/16252/mac-mini-apple-m1-tested
 
I'm not so sure on this. Reviews have been quite clear about its performance-per-watt figures:
Which isn't all that relevant for screen time for web browsing and office use, that's far more about whole system efficiency.
 
Which isn't all that relevant for screen time for web browsing and office use, that's far more about whole system efficiency.
Depends on what you're doing on the web, I suppose.

Idle vs idle performance (normalised for battery size and screen settings) may be competitive. But that's not exactly a significant achievement. A lot of that goes out the window* with bursty loads and background tasks.

*Pun not intended.
 
it's as much windows as the xbox (which doesn't mean it can't be successful, but it's more about getting kids hooked on Office than windows and Office runs on Macbooks too).

This may shock you but Office has run on Macs, to varying degrees of support, since the 1980s but with Microsoft dedicating serious intent to maintain feature parity for a good ten years before this thread was started. And to also blow your mind, Office 365 runs on anything with a modern web browser.

It feels like that the very concerted divergence of operating system platforms and software solutions passed you by some years back. Maybe you had a lie in, or a hangover or something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
I fail to see how it would surprise me since I was the one who brought it up.

Microsoft got caught in supporting Apple with Office when they were far less of a threat and they were in trouble with government. You don't see Apple porting FCP.

As hinted before, see xbox for how long Microsoft can keep shooting itself in the foot. In the end Microsoft apparently did agree with me that the xbox division was hurting PC and took their exclusives away from them.

PS. I'm not saying Microsoft should take Office away from Macs. Apple is by far the stronger brand now, Microsoft is coasting on inertia. Forcing Apple users off Office would just hurt them by pushing competition in the word processing and spreadsheet market.
 
Last edited:
No doubt about that.
Such a tired and lame meme.

Look at the crap that some PC gamers buy: "halo" GPUs, "Extreme Edition" CPUs, RAM modules with more aluminium than a kitchen sink, "gamer" chairs and mice, ludicrously priced mechanical keyboards... the list goes on. Heck, I still remember the days when Fatal1ty branded motherboards and soundcards were all the rage.

Every successful company in tech can sell overpriced turd products. This notion that it's only Apple that does so is bizarre and laughable.
 
Every successful company in tech can sell overpriced turd products. This notion that it's only Apple that does so is bizarre and laughable
The difference is the brand power and the culture Apple have built, not just the overpriced stuff they sell. The disdain from Apple users to others is often palpable and so obvious.
 
Back
Top