Apple is an existential threat to the PC

Discussion in 'PC Industry' started by MfA, Apr 3, 2018.

  1. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    Huh? :???:
     
  2. MfA

    MfA
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    When there's a tracking ID mechanism for advertising in the OS you've lost my trust.
     
  3. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    The 'advertising ID' option you can turn off? It seems a simple choice. Some products and services are supported by ads and you're going to get ads whether you like it or not. This is simply a choice for those ads to be relevant to you, based on what/how you use things, or not.

    There is something very similar in iOS btw.
     
  4. MfA

    MfA
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    Well that makes me think less of Apple too, all the more opportunity for some proper competition.
     
  5. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    You've discounted Apple, Google and Microsoft. Who is this mysterious competition with no market share who will displace these company's massive user bases?
     
  6. MfA

    MfA
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    I don't discount anyone, they all have their niche ... but the PCs niche will be getting increasingly cramped if it doesn't find something more to excel at than historical inertia.
     
  7. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    I agree. I bet an awful lot of traditional PC users bought their PC predominantly for occasional email, web browsing and music and these are all things that can be done as well (if not better) on smaller, cheaper devices or is just becoming increasingly redundant. Those people are least likely to replace their PC once it's dead but really aren't a loss to the PC industry; they likely weren't the type of be upgrading to new versions fo Windows or upgrading their PCs.

    The people who are are using PCs (incl. Macs), do so for a reason and I don't see they have else anywhere to migrate too. Yet.
     
  8. Silent_Buddha

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    There's one more thing to think about in this discussion, IMO.

    If Apple moves away from x86, Apple stands to lose market share as many professionals only consider a Mac because they can also easily run x86 Windows applications if needed for work.

    Apple moving to x86 kept them relevant not only because of the increased performance but the easy and efficient way it can also run x86 Windows applications for business.

    I can only see moving away from x86 as hurting them.

    Regards,
    SB
     
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  9. orangpelupa

    orangpelupa Elite Bug Hunter
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    Nowadays pc is no longer a lot cheaper than laptops. Their specs also no longer need to be upgraded frequently. Heck, my 5 years old Sony vaio tap 11 still can serve me well for video editing, making apps, Photoshop, tons more (the 4GB ram is annoying tho).

    For general people, It's only gaming that requires frequent hardware update and it's mainly only on Gpu.

    On the other hand, gpu price is crazy,, if you are looking to buy a whole new pc... it's cheaper to just buy ugly looking ASUS gaming laptop. At least that was the case when the company I worked for was looking for a computer for video editing.
     
  10. Entropy

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    How many are those though?
    Especially seeing as Apple is perfectly capable of running x86 under emulation, at a performance penalty that realistically won’t matter for anyone but gamers.
    Also, Apple wouldn’t shift unless it gave tangible benefits. Wouldn’t the overall market effect of those far outweigh the individuals who, for whatever reason, ran performance critical Windows apps on Macs?
    I can see it benefitting Apple a lot. And I’m rather certain Apple won’t move unless there are tangible benefits. After all, they are promoting iOS as an alternative far stronger than MacOS.
     
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  11. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    Apple's move to 80x86 wasn't really a choice, they've long sold vastly more laptops than desktops (iMac, MacMini, Mac Pro) and there was no solution that could put a G5 in a laptop. The ability to run native 80x86 was a bonus but there were Windows 80x86 emulators for PowerPC, like Microsoft's own VirtualPC and there would be again for a non-x86 Mac if there was a demand. Apple only begrudgingly supports Bootcamp, it receives little development each year. I think they would likely welcome a reason to abandon it. As we've seen from the iMac Pro, they've keen to move the Mac to a fully secure digital enclave and that presents a problem for Bootcamp.

    Last year Microsoft said Windows on ARM would run 80x86 code at "near native speeds" and explained how. Emulation isn't the performance hit it once was, well it's still sub-optimal which is why you generally don't do traditional emulation, you cross-compile or build a new binary once, then run that native code. Simples.
     
  12. rcf

    rcf
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    I think it's more likely that Apple is a greater existential threat to the Macintosh than to the PC.
    Macs nowadays are just expensive but underpowered PCs that require all sorts of cables and dongles while having glued and non-upgradable internals, and Apple is THE definition of "planned obsolescence" so all your significant investment in the Mac platform may go down the drain overnight and without warning, like what just happened with Nvidia cards and Thunderbolt 1/2 GPU enclosures.
    Apple should change its name to "The iPhone Company".
     
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  13. Grall

    Grall Invisible Member
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    Well, I don't follow the laptop market religiously precisely (or at all really lol), but in the past you had HP, Dell, Lenovo as the either the biggest, or at least amongst the biggest market players IIRC. Not sure how things look today, but surely they can't have withered completely?
     
  14. DSoup

    DSoup meh
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    I think MfA is looking for an operating system, not a PC manufacturer. I'm assuming he's discounted linux because it doesn't "Werk" although most flavours I've tried in the last few years have worked without problem and installed quicker and with less fuss and restarts than Windows 10.
     
  15. zed

    zed
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    Wait Chromebooks have experienced double digit growth every year since launch, in the same times laptops have declined year after year
    Yet its chromebooks that are dead?

    Wait let me guess, weren't you one of those that years ago said mobile phones were never gonna overtake PC's (cause who wants to browse the internet on such a small screen etc) :D
    Hubris

    A quarter of the 20 best selling laptops are chromebooks, pretty impressive for a 'dead' product
    https://www.amazon.com/Best-Sellers-Computers-Accessories-Laptop/zgbs/pc/565108

    Would I buy a chromebook for at home use (fuck no), though I supose I could see the use if I was going on holiday and theres a possibility it could get nicked
     
  16. Entropy

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    You don’t seem aware under which conditions the functionality was provided in the first place. And are you absolutely sure that it won’t be fixed?
    As for longevity, my main home computer is a 27" iMac from 2009 with its 2560x1440 IPS screen, that doubles as one of the screens for the gaming PC (latest OS). My kids use a macbook pro from 2004 as one of their Netflix/Spotify servers. These things just keeps humming along.

    Its a bit weird that build quility, weight, battery life, screen quality, keyboard and trackpad quality, thermal control accuracy, design and so on and so forth never get discussed by PC advocates. I’ve been using macs along with a plethora of other machines since 1985 and so have followed those arguments since the very beginning. The song never changes.

    Today the same things are heard about iPhones vs. Android, and for very similar reasons.
     
  17. tongue_of_colicab

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    Those things are discussed in pretty much every laptop review these days I believe. At the end of the day you get what you pay for. Yes apple products look nice and they use good materials, but you pay a big premium for that. Not a lot of point in comparing the build quality of a 1500 euro laptop with a 500 euro laptop.

    A couple of months back my gf picked a Surface laptop over a apple laptop. Can't say there is anything wrong with the built quality as far as I can tell. Sames goes with phones. I got a oneplus 3 and I can't say that at half the price of an iphone its that much less in build quality.
     
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  18. Gubbi

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    Putting words in my mouth, nice...

    Because there are few tens Chromebook models and hundreds upon hundreds of laptop models. Next, you'll argue less choice is better

    The only reason Chromebook sales registers at all is because Google offers a sweet deal for US schools.

    Cheers
     
    #38 Gubbi, Apr 5, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
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  19. MfA

    MfA
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    The only way to have long term high quality support and QA is to have a limited number of platforms, so it is better in some respects.

    I'd prefer to have a situation where we can have the best of both worlds. An ecosystem where everyone can make uncertified devices, on which people can mix and match OS/driver/etc updates in the way Linux/Windows users do now ... but for the same OS there should also exist certified devices running long term supported and QA'd hardware+software configurations ala Chromebook/Surface/Macbooks/consoles. I think this would give the PC a better raison d'etre in the modern world.

    Microsoft is doing this at the moment, but only for their own Surface. Other Windows users still have to do the basic computer administration we all know and love, but which most of the rest of the world only grudgingly accepts. Chromebooks offer more freedom in some ways, with Google allowing third party vendors to package basic hardware configurations with some customization ... but handling the support and QA centrally. But Chromebooks are a completely walled garden as far as software is concerned and they datamine their users, so not exactly what I envision either.
     
    #39 MfA, Apr 5, 2018
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
  20. Entropy

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    The software platforms are fundamentally different in how they are funded. Android is provided ”for free” - it is basically ad-ware. Windows is funded by licensing. MacOS/iOS is funded by hardware sales, so only allows/supports running the OS on their own devices. Pick your poison.
    It influences the feel of the respective platforms though in terms of breadth of hardware choice, longevity of support, coherence et cetera.

    In terms of Apple going ARM for their MacOS systems, there are tangible advantages for Apple in terms of tailoring their SoC to the hardware they want to build whether in features, performance, power draw, timing of introduction, or cost. But this has to translate into an equally tangible benefit for their customers, or the appeal of their machines won’t increase. Would the benefits of rolling their own outweigh the advantages of just buying off the shelf PC components and put their engineering into design, integration and software? Weeell - maybe. Impossible to say really without having the actual products and pricepoints. It would be really interesting to see. As a long time mac user, I’ve already gone through three different underlying ISAs, and another change isn’t such a big deal. I’m more curious as to what it would enable, than fearful of dire consequences, because I know there wouldn’t really be any.

    I can’t see any red blooded tech enthusiast not be curious about what Apple could do on TSMC 5nm in 2020 if given 150mm2 and 50W. :)
     
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