Any visual evidence of PS2 normal mapping?
- Thread starter Bohdy
- Start date
Bohdy said:
Nope. None whatsoever. And that Path of Neo game... We're talking about Dave Perry here come on.
deathkiller
Newcomer
That face looks normal-maped to me.
Could be prebaked too 
You wont be able to tell if it is Normal Mapped until you see some lighting move. Normal Maps will react as if they were geometry (to a degree) by shifty the shadows and highlights based on the "depth" of the object. Prebaked textures will look the same (i.e. cast the same shadows) no matter how the lighting changes.
You wont be able to tell if it is Normal Mapped until you see some lighting move. Normal Maps will react as if they were geometry (to a degree) by shifty the shadows and highlights based on the "depth" of the object. Prebaked textures will look the same (i.e. cast the same shadows) no matter how the lighting changes.
PS2 usually got round to the "bumpy look" with some high-ish res textures and specular maps. Normal maps is nowhere to be seen. But hey, apparently we'll see HDR, SSS, AA, AF, 20Mpolys+, all on PS2!!! Why buy next gen consoles?!one
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Simulated geometry
bump-mapping and all variations such as normal mapping = simulated geometry
Simulated geometry is needed where appearance of very high geometry model is desired but where for performance reasons actual high geometry models would not be practical and hence must be simulated using less demanding method.
On PS2, see 60fps Champions return to Arms. In opening scene, look at decorative irregularly shaped sculptural detail covering portal. It is not real geometry but simulated geometry and reacts to lighting in real-time as you rotate camera and change angle of reflected light.
Once through portal, look at cavern walls which appear to have detailed geometry such as horizontal ridges but close inspection reveals it is also simulated geometry.
It is feasible to do high-quality normal mapping on PS2. High-quality normal mapping accomplished in just 4 passes so this is no problem on GS unit which is designed for multi-pass effects. Performance difference between basic geometry simulation like Champions and high-quality geometry simulation may be frame-rate, perhaps 30fps instead of 60fps.
bump-mapping and all variations such as normal mapping = simulated geometry
Simulated geometry is needed where appearance of very high geometry model is desired but where for performance reasons actual high geometry models would not be practical and hence must be simulated using less demanding method.
On PS2, see 60fps Champions return to Arms. In opening scene, look at decorative irregularly shaped sculptural detail covering portal. It is not real geometry but simulated geometry and reacts to lighting in real-time as you rotate camera and change angle of reflected light.
Once through portal, look at cavern walls which appear to have detailed geometry such as horizontal ridges but close inspection reveals it is also simulated geometry.
It is feasible to do high-quality normal mapping on PS2. High-quality normal mapping accomplished in just 4 passes so this is no problem on GS unit which is designed for multi-pass effects. Performance difference between basic geometry simulation like Champions and high-quality geometry simulation may be frame-rate, perhaps 30fps instead of 60fps.
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Unnecessary
What is the purpose of making this comment?
Qroach said:
What is the purpose of making this comment?
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Basic simulated geometry
See non-repeating sculptural details on outside surface of portal? It is the basic geometry simulation of which I spoke. From close inspection of still-frame one can tell it is not real geometry, but when rotating camera it reacts to light as real geometry based sculptural detail would and when playing gives appearance of geometry.
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/038/reviews/920597_20050208_screen003.jpg
This image is not very clear but simulated geometry gives impression of ridges cavern surfaces.
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/038/reviews/920597_20050208_screen008.jpg
pixelbox said:could you show some pictures of this game pleeeeeassssse? i would like to see this.
See non-repeating sculptural details on outside surface of portal? It is the basic geometry simulation of which I spoke. From close inspection of still-frame one can tell it is not real geometry, but when rotating camera it reacts to light as real geometry based sculptural detail would and when playing gives appearance of geometry.
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/038/reviews/920597_20050208_screen003.jpg
This image is not very clear but simulated geometry gives impression of ridges cavern surfaces.
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2005/038/reviews/920597_20050208_screen008.jpg
I suppose that http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/article/553/553919/champions-return-to-arms-20041004063905686.jpg is another example?
Hmm, if it reacts to light, then it does appear to be either normal-mapped or at least using some form of BM, like greyscale. I'd like to see it in motion...
It is amazing how the PS2 is always full of surprises. I could have sworn that it had reached its visual peak about a year ago, but there are still games like RE4 and Black that keep pushing the system to new heights.
Hmm, if it reacts to light, then it does appear to be either normal-mapped or at least using some form of BM, like greyscale. I'd like to see it in motion...
It is amazing how the PS2 is always full of surprises. I could have sworn that it had reached its visual peak about a year ago, but there are still games like RE4 and Black that keep pushing the system to new heights.
scatteh316
Newcomer
This should help :
http://ps2dev.org/ps2/Tutorials/TUTORIAL_5:_Advanced_Perfomance_tips/Normal_Mapping_Tutorial_by_Morten_'Sparky'_Mikkelsen
http://ps2dev.org/ps2/Tutorials/TUTORIAL_5:_Advanced_Perfomance_tips/Normal_Mapping_Tutorial_by_Morten_'Sparky'_Mikkelsen
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Weakness of simulated geometry.
Only way to you to know for yourself is to see for yourself by visiting scene in game and rotating camera and view light and shadow from different angles. Also, perhaps a good video available for free on IGN?
This still image from much more advanced game, Elder Scrolls 4, reveals weakness of simulated geometry. As one can tell from looking at the armor, even on the most powerful GPUs illusion of simulated geometry only succeeds from certain angles and when not viewed too closely. Hence we will have to wait many years before all can be done with real geometry. But I am quite happy with this method for now.
http://1up.com/media?id=1877419&type=lg
pixelbox said:
Only way to you to know for yourself is to see for yourself by visiting scene in game and rotating camera and view light and shadow from different angles. Also, perhaps a good video available for free on IGN?
This still image from much more advanced game, Elder Scrolls 4, reveals weakness of simulated geometry. As one can tell from looking at the armor, even on the most powerful GPUs illusion of simulated geometry only succeeds from certain angles and when not viewed too closely. Hence we will have to wait many years before all can be done with real geometry. But I am quite happy with this method for now.
http://1up.com/media?id=1877419&type=lg
therealskywolf
Regular
Matrix Path of Neo uses normal mapping on the Ps2. Unfortunatelly....it looks like a low end normal mapping, like the original models are made of thousands of polygons instead of millions of polygons.
Matrix path of the neo characters actually look very average, for example
Look at it, does that look like a very high poly Model? Sure doesn't look to me. Yeah it uses normal mapping i guess....too bad it looks worse than games that don't.
And regarding Champions of Norrath, it doesn't use normal mapping, it uses static bump mapping.
Matrix path of the neo characters actually look very average, for example
Look at it, does that look like a very high poly Model? Sure doesn't look to me. Yeah it uses normal mapping i guess....too bad it looks worse than games that don't.
And regarding Champions of Norrath, it doesn't use normal mapping, it uses static bump mapping.
without having played or seen chapions under any other circumstances but from the posted shots, one immediately can note two things:
1) the shots exibit not only bumpiness but also the higher bumps cast shadows - that's more than what regular bumpmapping can deliver, it takes at least parallax or more complex techniques.
2) the bumped surfaces are fairly static in terms of spatial orientation - a stone world gate and a stone altar (?) and unless the (outdoor) light source moves they'd hardly need any dynamic illumination techniques (aside from receiving casted shadows) as they are very unlikely to change their interaction with the light source. unless the game uses some unified lighting model, that is ; )
bottomline being, i'm highly skeptical that title uses normal mapping.
1) the shots exibit not only bumpiness but also the higher bumps cast shadows - that's more than what regular bumpmapping can deliver, it takes at least parallax or more complex techniques.
2) the bumped surfaces are fairly static in terms of spatial orientation - a stone world gate and a stone altar (?) and unless the (outdoor) light source moves they'd hardly need any dynamic illumination techniques (aside from receiving casted shadows) as they are very unlikely to change their interaction with the light source. unless the game uses some unified lighting model, that is ; )
bottomline being, i'm highly skeptical that title uses normal mapping.
ihamoitc2005
Veteran
Change angle = change light reflection
What happens when one rotates camera from one camera location is intensity of reflected light changes on all real and simulated surfaces if portal. This is because although stone portal and light source (sun) on that level are fixed in space, a change in angle from which object is viewed changes changes point in sky that is reflected by all parts of visible surface. So at one camera angle the same point is very bright, at another camera angle the same point is less bright. So not just shadows vary but also intensity of light is variable on all surface of portal. Also, different camera location changes point of peak reflection within range of camera angles while maintaining illusion of real geometry.
As for Neo game, yes, most character models bodies are not very impressive, but the Trinity character model has very nice simulation of real shiny and flexible coat material.
darkblu said:
What happens when one rotates camera from one camera location is intensity of reflected light changes on all real and simulated surfaces if portal. This is because although stone portal and light source (sun) on that level are fixed in space, a change in angle from which object is viewed changes changes point in sky that is reflected by all parts of visible surface. So at one camera angle the same point is very bright, at another camera angle the same point is less bright. So not just shadows vary but also intensity of light is variable on all surface of portal. Also, different camera location changes point of peak reflection within range of camera angles while maintaining illusion of real geometry.
As for Neo game, yes, most character models bodies are not very impressive, but the Trinity character model has very nice simulation of real shiny and flexible coat material.
therealskywolf said:Matrix Path of Neo uses normal mapping on the Ps2. Unfortunatelly....it looks like a low end normal mapping, like the original models are made of thousands of polygons instead of millions of polygons.
Matrix path of the neo characters actually look very average, for example
Look at it, does that look like a very high poly Model? Sure doesn't look to me. Yeah it uses normal mapping i guess....too bad it looks worse than games that don't.
And regarding Champions of Norrath, it doesn't use normal mapping, it uses static bump mapping.
i dont see any bumps in the path to neo.