Any details on AMD Leo demo?

[Xenus]

While this conversation has appeared to have gone completely off the deep end.

Regarding the idea of processing then upscaling Timothy Lottes of FXAA fame experimented with that for a bit in his experiments with what he wants FXAA 4.0 to be. Showing it can look acceptable.

http://timothylottes.blogspot.com/2011/12/fxaa-40-stills-and-features.html

It will be interesting to see what it becomes when he gets time to complete it.

 

[Davros]

what he is doing isnt the same as what steamy is suggesting though
ps:

The goals of FXAA 4.0 are,

(1.) Aid in the support of film quality visuals for games.
(2.) Ultra high quality/cost anti-aliasing.

I'm sure he didnt mean he wants Ultra high cost anti-aliasing.

 

[Xenus]

Well SSAA is ultra high cos. He in similar fashion wants to process something at a lower res then upscale it because he thinks that's a better option then making similar quality at higher res.

 

[Davros]

is that how your reading it ?
Im reading it as render with traditional aa, (no mention of type) downscale then postprocess aa

steamy suggests render with ssaa then upscale

 

[Xenus]

He is rendering with AA including SSAA and a post process then either sharpening or sharpening and upscaling there are a few posts after that one which gives the general idea. He later basically makes the argument that with a lower res we can get film quality graphics with given techniques which seem to be is what steamy is arguing even though Steamy seems more of a proponent of brute force methods to do so.

 

[humbertklyka]

I think that Timothy also discusses an interesting point, in that we have come to expect much sharper graphics when it comes to computer displays, as opposed to movies.

So for keeping the current sharpness we will have to live with at least some aliasing, regardless of the amount of samples per pixel.

 

[MfA]

Bullshit, lets get to the quality of high ratio stochastic supersampled renders first before we start making excuses ... nowhere near yet.

 

[steampoweredgod]

Fractals and stuff...

if you want us to believe your right post a photograph here uncompressed then post the same picture after it has been fractally compressed, we will compare then if you right we we all say "hail steamy for he is indeed the dogs bollocks"
untill then dont be suprised if people think you are sprouting random nonsense especiall when you start talking of crystals extended into the forth dimension

In biology form and function tend to go together if the brain has fractal design, structure and functionality it is known to be able to scale arbitrary patterns as if they were vector graphics(up to a point artists can do this with ease). That this particular implementation may not reach the theoretically optimal form could be suspectected or maybe something else is being done in biology. I'm merely suggesting that the comments made regarding networks of wires in switchboards seem earily close to what's likely going on in living tissue


The combinatorial explosion pops up in many places yielding more relations than atoms in the earth or even the universe. Fractals appear to embody infinity in finite form, and do appear like they may be able to solve the combinatorial explosion in things like vision if the math can be extended further.

 

[Davros]

Once again fractals and fractal compression are not the same thing
crocodile clips are about as closely related to crocodiles as fractal compression is related to fractals

I'm merely suggesting that the comments made regarding networks of wires in switchboards seem earily close to what's likely going on in living tissue

Nobody has made comments regarding networks of wires......

if the brain has fractal design

Well it doesnt, so thats that issue dealt with

 

[rpg.314]

In biology form and function tend to go together if the brain has fractal design, structure and functionality it is known to be able to scale arbitrary patterns as if they were vector graphics(up to a point artists can do this with ease). That this particular implementation may not reach the theoretically optimal form could be suspectected or maybe something else is being done in biology. I'm merely suggesting that the comments made regarding networks of wires in switchboards seem earily close to what's likely going on in living tissue


The combinatorial explosion pops up in many places yielding more relations than atoms in the earth or even the universe. Fractals appear to embody infinity in finite form, and do appear like they may be able to solve the combinatorial explosion in things like vision if the math can be extended further.

MODS: Can we split this thread for separate fractal and Leo discussion?

 

[steampoweredgod]

Nobody has made comments regarding networks of wires......

The guy who wrote a book on deterministic fractal algorithm in the older linked documentary talks about telephone wiring boards, matrices, and a way to make sense of it all, took him 20 years to come up with the solution. Even the brain has a certain proportion of connections called a filling fraction, and connections are not only strengthened but also weakened(long term depression), evidence suggest and some neuroscientists believe that synaptic strength is also discrete and limited.

In areas like language the combinatorial explosion is huge, also a phenomena seen in the integrated theory of consciousness. We're talking a number of relations exceeding atoms in visible universe. The possibility of fractal mathematics to produce something that can handle this in very small finite space seems like a very good possibility, and in fact is even suggested in the linked segment of video.

 

[Davros]

The guy who wrote a book on deterministic fractal algorithm in the older linked documentary talks about telephone wiring boards, matrices, and a way to make sense of it all, took him 20 years to come up with the solution. Even the brain has a certain proportion of connections called a filling fraction, and connections are not only strengthened but also weakened(long term depression), evidence suggest and some neuroscientists believe that synaptic strength is also discrete and limited.

In areas like language the combinatorial explosion is huge, also a phenomena seen in the integrated theory of consciousness. We're talking a number of relations exceeding atoms in visible universe. The possibility of fractal mathematics to produce something that can handle this in very small finite space seems like a very good possibility, and in fact is even suggested in the linked segment of video.

heres a quiz for you, lets see how well you do.

How much of the above quote is related to fractal compression

A. None Of it
B. Zilch
C. Nada, none ,zero
D. Bugger all
E. Not a sausage

 

[steampoweredgod]

heres a quiz for you, lets see how well you do.

How much of the above quote is related to fractal compression

A. None Of it
B. Zilch
C. Nada, none ,zero
D. Bugger all
E. Not a sausage

err,

There is something that fractals embody that explains were the detail comes from and why it's there.

The number of X resolution images of X colors is finite, and the larger X size images are merely collages of smaller X size images of smaller X number colors. There is also a minimum size past which a complexity ceiling is kinda reached and further increases seem to only add trivial details from the smaller images.

E.g. A lower resolution image can mostly transmit pretty much the same message, especially if we boil it down to binary.

The relationship between finite number images and larger images appears to be fractal, and such mathematics thus results in impressive results because in truth there is in practicality a finitude of possibility not an infinitude.

with regards to quote, iirc, it is the mechanism used to extract fractal formulas from arbitrary images and realize the compression or analysis. A fractal code may handle the finitude of possibility that appears infinite from an everyday perspective... if it can be extended to deal with combinatorial explosions in multiple domains it may have very wide applicability and uses.

 

[steampoweredgod]

In sum,

As descartes would say "Cogito ergo sum"

Between any two arbitrary infinities lie an infinity of infinities

Fractal eyes, fractal mathematics to handle the reality of infinity upon infinity, the shackles of the homunculus.

 

[imaxx]

Even the brain [...]
In areas like language the combinatorial explosion is huge, also a phenomena seen in the integrated theory of consciousness. We're talking a number of relations exceeding atoms in visible universe.

....oooh! Initially, computational neuroscientists used the number of neurons to justify their poor results, then they moved to the number of connections, then to their combinatorial explosion. Except having even problems even reproducing lesser life forms with few neurons... but this is another story.

The possibility of fractal mathematics to produce something that can handle this in very small finite space seems like a very good possibility

I give you an hint: the 5 peano's axiom compress all the number - hell, that's HELL of compression.
A second hint: a generative grammar (->Chomsky, the theories behind all compilers) can handle everything. And it takes a very finite, and very limited, space.
A third hint: the idea that the (A/N)NN could be fractal is impressive indeed. NNs has no (un)ordered training in truth, their shape is fractally-generated!! (LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL sorry, my MD was on the algorithmic interpretation of AI).
A fourth, obscure hint: what makes a fractal... fractal is not the generative approach, but something more related to its dimensional results and the way you evaluate and mark one point as part (or not part) of a set.

 

[imaxx]

oh I forgot - I didnt see RSA, world's banks and militaries very worried about the possibility of managing the combinatorial explosions with fractals (you know, solving the TSP-class problems would have a "slight" impact over them)

 

[Davros]

Oh, god remember when we had normal people like _XXX_ to argue with

 

[Rodéric]

Went completely off rails, if you are interested in discussing any topic from that thread please start new ones and stay on topic. Thank you !