And it was said that they shall sloweth...

jvd,

yeah, that could be a path people might want to follow... there is a problem though and this is PCB costs....

Following your example, the T&L chip would need quite a fat and fast bus that connects it with the rest of the GPU+memory controller and that is going to increase PCB manufacturing costs requiring more and more traces and layers and stricter tolerance.

But if this is cheaper than rushing to an even smaller manufacturing process I think it is viable... in this case the scalable and modular approach Sony, IBM and Toshiba are following with Cell prooves to be a winning solution...

Cell based designs will likely have more redundancy ( you can have a CPU which uses 8-16 PEs and the T&L unit which uses only 4 PEs... this is an hypotetical design, not PlayStation 3 ;) ) as you base your approach on basic and uniform bulding blocks which you basically repeat over and over and that can svae you costs as you do not need several heavily diversified manufacturing lines... you might use the same one...


overclocked,

Sony and Toshiba already announced the completion ( whcih doesn't mean they have the fabs upgraded to 65 nm technology yet ) of their 65 nm ( SOI based IIRC ) manufacturing process a while ago...

Toshiba, Sony unveil 65-nm embedded memory process

By Mark LaPedus
Semiconductor Business News
December 5, 2002 (1:00 p.m. EST)

TOKYO--Enabling the shift towards “ubiquitous computing,†Japan's Toshiba Corp. and Sony Corp. late Monday announced the world's first 65-nm CMOS process technology for embedded memories.

The process technology will enable single-chip devices, said to be one-fourth the size of current embedded chips in the market. The process also enables a 30-nm transistor with the world's fastest switching speeds, as well as the world's smallest cell for embedded DRAM and SRAM.

Toshiba and Sony have utilized 65-nm process to fabricate an embedded DRAM with a cell size of 0.11um2, which will enable a 256-megabit memory to be integrated on a single chip. It also fabricated the world's smallest embedded SRAM cell of only 0.6um2.

The technology will bring the market towards what the companies call “ubiquitous computing,†that is, total connectivity at all times, according to Toshiba and Sony.

The new process technology is the result of a joint development of 90- and 65-nm CMOS processes, which was initiated in May 2001 (see May 18, 2001 story ). Full details will be presented at the International Electron Devices Meeting (IEDM) in San Francisco from Dec. 9-11.

In a release issued late Monday, the companies described some of the details of the process, including the development of a high-performance transistor with a 30-nm gate length.

Fabricated with 193-nm lithography tools and phase-shift photomasks, the transistor is said to have switching speeds of 0.72-ps for NMOSFET and 1.41-ps for PMOSFET at 0.85-Volt (Ioff=100nA/um).

The transistor makes use of a nitrogen concentration plasma nitrided, oxide-gate dielectrics to suppress gate leakage current. This optimization reduces leakage current approximately 50 times more efficiently than conventional silicon dioxide film and allows formation of an oxide with an effective thickness of only 1-nm.

To reduce wiring propagation delay and power dissipation, a low-k dielectric material is adopted. The target effective dielectric constant of the interlayer dielectric is around 2.7.

And the PR...

Toshiba and Sony Make Major Advances in Semiconductor Process Technologies

3 December, 2002

65-nanometer process technology will create small, powerful System LSIs

Toshiba Corporation
Sony Corporation

TOKYO, December 3, 2002 -- Toshiba Corporation and Sony Corporation today announced the world's first 65-nanometer (nm) CMOS process technology for embedded DRAM system LSIs -- a major breakthrough in process technology for highly advanced, compact, single-chip system LSIs that will be only one-fourth the size of current devices while offering higher levels of performance and functionality.

The move to ubiquitous computing -- total connectivity at all times -- relies on high-performance equipment. These in turn require advanced SoC (system on chip) LSIs integrating ultra-high performance transistors and embedded high-density DRAM. In such devices, size and performance levels are directly related to process technology: finer lithography results in smaller devices that offer higher levels of performance. The new process technology announced by Toshiba and Sony and integration to a new level that allows bandwidths to be scaled up and the maximization of system performance.

Current system LSI devices on the market are produced with 130 nanometer process technologies. Toshiba, the recognized industry leader in advanced process technology, is the only company with mass production technology for 90nm process embedded DRAM system LSI, a technology it is currently deploying and that will meet ever increasing demand for more and more compact devices.

The new SoC technologies for 65nm process generation include: 1) a high-performance transistor with the world's fastest switching speed; 2) the world's smallest cell for embedded DRAM; and 3) the world's smallest cell for embedded SRAM.

The new process technology is the result of joint development of Toshiba Corporation and Sony Corporation of 90nm and 65nm CMOS process technology that was initiated in May 2001. Full details will be presented at the December 9 - 11 International Electron Devices Meeting (IEDM) in San Francisco.

Outline of new technology
1) High-performance transistor with 30nm gate length:
Transistors in this technology have high nitrogen concentration plasma nitrided oxide-gate dielectrics to suppress gate leakage current. This optimization reduces leakage current approximately 50 times more efficiently than conventional SiO2 film and allows formation of an oxide with an effective thickness of only 1nm. Furthermore, Ni silicide is applied in the gate electrodes and source/drain regions to attain low resistance and to reduce junction leakage current. Shallow extension formation optimizing ultra-low energy ion implantation, spike RTA and offset spacer process successfully suppresses the short channel effect of MOSFET and achieves superior roll-off characteristics. An excellent switching speed of 0.72psec for NMOSFET and 1.41psec for PMOSFET at 0.85V (Ioff=100nA/um), were obtained. Currently available Hi-NA193-nm lithography with alternating phase shift mask and slimming process provides 30nm gate lengths.

2) Embedded DRAM cell:
High-speed data processing requires a single-chip solution integrating a microprocessor and embedded large volume memory. Toshiba is the only semiconductor vendor able to offer commercial trench-capacitor DRAM technology for 90nm-generation DRAM-embedded System LSI. Toshiba and Sony have utilized 65nm process to technology to fabricate an embedded DRAM with a cell size of 0.11um2, the world's smallest, which will allow DRAM with a capacity of more than 256Mbit to be integrated on a single chip.

3) Embedded SRAM cell:
SRAM is sometimes used as cache memory in SoC systems. The Hi-NA193-nm lithography with alternating phase shift mask and the slimming process combined with the non-slimming trim mask process will achieve the world's smallest embedded SRAM cell in the 65nm generation an areas of only 0.6um2.

4) 180nm Multi layer wiring:
In order to reduce the chip size, it is important reduce the pitch of the first metal of the lowest layer. The new technology has a 180nm pitch, a 75% shrink from the 90nm generation. To reduce wiring propagation delay and power dissipation, a low-k dielectric material is adopted. The target effective dielectric constant of the interlayer dielectric is around 2.7.

Note: 1 nanometer = one billionth of a meter

Press Inquiries:

Toshiba Corporation
Tel: 81-3-3457-2105
Email: press@toshiba.co.jp

Sony Corporation
Tel: 81-3-5448-2200
Email: yoshikazu.ochiai@jp.sony.com
 
I expect Cell to be targeted towards 65 nm, but I do not exclude that at least in early dev kits we might see a slower clocked and larger version made in 90 nm until 65 nm mass production in Sony and Toshiba's manufacturing plants is ready...
 
well i wouldn't be suprised if the first chips for the ps3 were done on .9nm untill bugs are worked out of the .65nm...
 
maybe, but the design must be THOUGHT following 65 nm specs.. otherwise you would sacrifice too much felxibility and performance...
 
Panajev2001a said:
maybe, but the design must be THOUGHT following 65 nm specs.. otherwise you would sacrifice too much felxibility and performance...


Well you'd prob see it with half the ondie ram and a much slower clock speed cause of heat. Of course you might see that on the .65nm too for all we know.
 
yes, but can you imagine how massive it might be if they have to optimize things due to have to cut back a bit of this and that to make it work for 65 nm technology ?


I think that 65 nm is the spec they have been thinking fo a long while regarding Cell and I don't think they will have massive cutbacks developing for that manufacturing process... Sony doesn't usually do it... they do not announce certain specs and then downgrade them... if their past is any indication they either keep them or upgrade them ( in the case of the PS2... the EE received ~3 more MTransistors and a 50 MHz speed bump... and the GS did recieve a 25 MHz speed bump too going to 150 MHz from 125 MHz... GS speed was prolly always kept halfd of the speed of the EE )...

90 nm is a technology people have been designing chips for a while ( well IBM and Intel ) that are supposed to be out this year ( Prescott for example )... you do not design massive chips like PlayStation 3's Broadband Engine and Visualizer, scheduled to ship to customer no earlier than 2005 ( launch of PlayStation 3 ), with 90 nm limitations in mind when in 2005 you have the 65 nm process ready ( in that year ) and you are starting to move towards the next best manufacturing process ( 45-50 nm )...
 
Panajev2001a said:
yes, but can you imagine how massive it might be if they have to optimize things due to have to cut back a bit of this and that to make it work for 65 nm technology ?


I think that 65 nm is the spec they have been thinking fo a long while regarding Cell and I don't think they will have massive cutbacks developing for that manufacturing process... Sony doesn't usually do it... they do not announce certain specs and then downgrade them... if their past is any indication they either keep them or upgrade them ( in the case of the PS2... the EE received ~3 more MTransistors and a 50 MHz speed bump... and the GS did recieve a 25 MHz speed bump too going to 150 MHz from 125 MHz... GS speed was prolly always kept halfd of the speed of the EE )...

90 nm is a technology people have been designing chips for a while ( well IBM and Intel ) that are supposed to be out this year ( Prescott for example )... you do not design massive chips like PlayStation 3's Broadband Engine and Visualizer, scheduled to ship to customer no earlier than 2005 ( launch of PlayStation 3 ), with 90 nm limitations in mind when in 2005 you have the 65 nm process ready ( in that year ) and you are starting to move towards the next best manufacturing process ( 45-50 nm )...


Yea but intel and ibm have been using proven desigins to test the mircon proceses they are using. Sony has never made any type of cell chip and has never used .65nm . Alot of crap can go wrong . Alot of companys had trouble going to .13 (amd , ati , nvidia) I'm sure alot more will have trouble hitting .9nm and .65 nm. Who knows what will happen.
 
The thing is that IBM is already moving to 65 nm and by 2005 they will reach it as Intel will, they both have it in their timelines...

Toshiba is IIRC Japanese's first semiconductor company and Sony in all these years has had experience with high-speed chip manufacturing...

All this time spent researching Cell with IBM allowed Sony and Toshiba to learn more than few tricks from IBM and Sony did license manufacturing technology from IBM and all these factors have helped Sony and Toshiba to come up with the new 65 nm process and they have all the interests in doing so...

Toshiba had much less problems with 13 um than TMSC or UMC and they had good yelds in their tests of the EE+GS combo chip in 13 um IIRC...

TMSC and UMC are at least 6 Months behind Intel and Sony+IBM+Toshiba and since they are only a foundry ( they said it ) the see that the costs of newer and newer factories will have them slow down... Intel and Sony+IBM+Toshiba are moving forward...

Not to say they will not have problems, everyone does, but they have more resources than TMSC which nVIDIA used and the one who dropped the ball on 13 um...

Sony has never made any type of cell chip and has never used .65nm

First, the first Cell chips will be coming out of IBM factories, not Sony's and Toshiba is building a new fab and Sony is upgrading theirs ( look at PS2 production moved from Japan to China... )... they are trying to get prepared :)
 
timeslines change 50 times before i wake up in the morning. They mean nothing to me till i see the chip in my hands. Who knows how many times intel and ibm have messed up .9nm or .65nms and haven't said anything. You only see delays and know they messed up when the product slips. If sony and ibm mess up on cell and haven't released a date for the ps3 then no one will ever know aobut it messing up
 
IBM invested 1 (or was it 2?) billion dollars in the 100nm fab plant. Now I have to ask what for, if the technology for Cell is going to be 65nm? Why are they even bothering with such an insane investment for something that will never pay off if Cell is not going to utlize it to begin with? It's not like IBM mass produces processors all the time so they need that 100nm plant. Why didn't they just skipped 100nm generation and used all the resources for the 65nm plant?
 
marconelly! said:
IBM invested 1 (or was it 2?) billion dollars in the 100nm fab plant. Now I have to ask what for, if the technology for Cell is going to be 65nm? Why are they even bothering with such an insane investment for something that will never pay off if Cell is not going to utlize it to begin with? It's not like IBM mass produces processors all the time so they need that 100nm plant. Why didn't they just skipped 100nm generation and used all the resources for the 65nm plant?

0.65um is two generations away. Next generation is 0.9um. They'll retool (part of) the fab for 0.65um. Wont be until late 2005 though (if that early)

Cheers
Gubbi
 
Gubbi said:
marconelly! said:
IBM invested 1 (or was it 2?) billion dollars in the 100nm fab plant. Now I have to ask what for, if the technology for Cell is going to be 65nm? Why are they even bothering with such an insane investment for something that will never pay off if Cell is not going to utlize it to begin with? It's not like IBM mass produces processors all the time so they need that 100nm plant. Why didn't they just skipped 100nm generation and used all the resources for the 65nm plant?

0.65um is two generations away. Next generation is 0.9um. They'll retool (part of) the fab for 0.65um. Wont be until late 2005 though (if that early)

Cheers
Gubbi



thing is, what other chips are they mass-producing? or what chip are they going to mass-produce using the 0.9 process? if it's not Cell what is it? :?
 
thing is, what other chips are they mass-producing? or what chip are they going to mass-produce using the 0.9 process? if it's not Cell what is it?
That's exactly what I'd like to know.

I'd also like to know if 1.0 that IBM has, is considered the same generation as 0.9 or not? It just seems kinda weird someone would be spending more billions to go from 1.0 to 0.9. That doesn't seem like a big gain?
 
From what I gathered ( and Vince ) not many chips have been produced with 100 nm SOI technology, though the development of that was helpful the the push for 65 nm in 2005 hence the shifted focus to 65 nm technology from the previous 100 nm Cell plans... as it was announced in the PR statements...

Marconelly, IBM doesn't have Cell only... the 100 nm, 90 nm and lower processes will be useful for other things... I don't know, have you heard of Power 4, PPC 970 die shrinks ( one is expected, pushing the PPC 970 past the 2 GHz barrier ), Power 5, etc... ? ;)

This statement coming from Toshiba and Sony's 65 nm process announcement press release:

The new SoC technologies for 65nm process generation include: 1) a high-performance transistor with the world's fastest switching speed; 2) the world's smallest cell for embedded DRAM; and 3) the world's smallest cell for embedded SRAM.

What could be a big chip that is using quit e abit of SRAM and e-DRAM which would greatly benefit from reducing the die area that SRAM and e-DRAM use... uhm.... I think I saw something in a certain patent ;)

Gubbi, 65 nm is one generation away not two... unless you have MAJOR stop-gaps between 90 nm and 65 nm ( 90 nm production fro IBM starts this year as they basically have the same timetable as Intel regarding manufacturing technologies )...

Toshiba is already at 90 nm too...

Current system LSI devices on the market are produced with 130 nanometer process technologies. Toshiba, the recognized industry leader in advanced process technology, is the only company with mass production technology for 90nm process embedded DRAM system LSI, a technology it is currently deploying and that will meet ever increasing demand for more and more compact devices.

And again, let me quote Sony and Toshiba's statement in December 2002:

Sony and Toshiba presented the basic technologies for their 65-nm process in December at the International Electron Devices Meeting. "We have reached a level where we can show the performance of the transistor fabricated on the process. On this level, we are sure that we can begin production in March 2004," said Seiji Yamada, chief specialist at Toshiba Semi's advanced CMOS technology group

I do not think that it says "late" 2005 ;)




Here is the whole PR:

Toshiba, Sony take trench capacitors to 90-nm node

By Yoshiko Hara
EE Times
January 17, 2003 (12:48 p.m. EST)


Archives
TOKYO — Toshiba Corp. said it is leveraging its deep-trench-capacitor DRAM structure, which it has championed as a process driver since the 0.25-micron generation, to migrate its system-on-chip devices to the 90-nanometer and 65-nm process nodes ahead of its competitors.

Process development partner Sony Corp., meanwhile, is formulating plans for production at the two next-generation nodes and said it will migrate to the trench-capacitor structure from a stacked-capacitor architecture developed with Fujitsu.

Toshiba has been shipping engineering samples of 90-nm embedded-DRAM devices since November and expects to begin volume production in March with a startup capacity of 1 million units per month. Small-scale production of devices at the 65-nm node is expected a year later, in March 2004.

The processes have been in development under a three-year joint R&D project launched with Sony in April 2001. Engineers from both companies have been working at Toshiba's research center in Shinsugita, Yokohama, near Tokyo.

Strange bedfellows

Sitting next to a competitor's engineers to discuss technology development and R&D cost sharing has been "quite a new experience for Toshiba engineers," said Tatsuo Noguchi, senior manager of the advanced CMOS technology group at Toshiba Semiconductor Co.

"Sony has been working with partners since the 0.18 micron generation. For 90 and 65 nm, we collaborated with Toshiba," said Naoaki Nagashima, general manager of the integration technology department at Sony Semiconductor Network Co.

Total investment by the two companies is expected to be about 15 billion yen (about $127 million) for the three-year project. The first phase, targeting the 90nm-node, was completed in September. Toshiba immediately began risk (test) production at its Oita fab.

Work on the 65-nm process started last April and is scheduled for completion by March 2004. Toshiba intends to begin 65-nm production immediately upon completion of the joint R&D work. A 300-mm fab to be built at the Oita site is slated to begin turning out devices in the 65-nm process next year.

Sony has made no firm decisions on when and where to begin production of devices using the CMOS4 and CMOS5 (90- and 65-nm) processes, according to Nagashima. One decision that has been made however, is that Sony will adopt the processes jointly developed with Toshiba and will switch to deep-trench-type DRAM for its embedded-DRAM devices, dropping the stacked-capacitor structure co-developed with Fujitsu.

"Toshiba's Oita fab is ready for volume production of CMOS4 process devices, which we believe [puts us in the lead at the 90-nm node]," said Masaka-zu Kakumu, general manager of Toshiba Semi's advanced logic technology department.

The company attributes its advantage in embedded-DRAM devices to the deep-trench capacitor. When trench-capacitor DRAMs are integrated onto system-on-chip devices, the DRAM process is completed before the logic device process. In stacked-capacitor-structure embedded DRAM, by contrast, the DRAM cell is built on the metal wiring layer, and the high-temperature process used for the DRAM cells can deteriorate the transistors underneath that layer, Toshiba claims.

The CMOS4 and CMOS5 processes continue a practice Toshiba has had in place since the 0.25-micron generation, when trench-capacitor DRAM became the linchpin technology for process advances at the company. According to Toshiba, the strategy has given it a leg up at the 130-nm node, where it claims to be the only company to date to have undertaken true mass production of embedded DRAM. For its 90-nm process, device yields for 32-Mbit embedded DRAM have reached the volume-production level, according to Kakumu.

At Toshiba America, sales are under way for the TC300 family, based on the CMOS4. The devices feature up to 11 layers of copper metal interconnect with low-k dielectric and logic densities of up to 400,000 gates/mm2.

For the 90-nm node, Artisan Components will provide libraries for Toshiba's devices, with availability expected this summer. Toshiba offers proprietary libraries but expects Artisan's CMOS4 environment to appeal to customers of foundries, such as Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., to which Artisan will provide its design platform and libraries. Foundry customers can move to Toshiba's process using the design interface provided by Artisan.

Toshiba added ArF lithography and low-k dielectric facilities to the clean room of its Oita fab for CMOS4 fabrication. The CMOS4 line now has an 8-inch wafer capacity of 27,500 a month. Toshiba and Oita TS Semiconductor Co. Ltd. (OT-SS), a joint-venture fab with Sony Computer Entertainment Inc., share the fab's capacity.

CMOS5

Sony and Toshiba presented the basic technologies for their 65-nm process in December at the International Electron Devices Meeting. "We have reached a level where we can show the performance of the transistor fabricated on the process. On this level, we are sure that we can begin production in March 2004," said Seiji Yamada, chief specialist at Toshiba Semi's advanced CMOS technology group.

Fabricated with 193-nm lithography and phase-shift masks, the transistor is reported to hit switching speeds of 0.72 picosecond for an n-MOSFET and 1.41 ps for a p-MOSFET at 0.85 volt. The embedded DRAM cell measures 0.11 micron2, allowing a 256-Mbit DRAM to be housed on-chip with logic. The process' embedded SRAM has a cell size of 0.6 micron2.

The new technology enables a 180-nm pitch, a 75 percent shrink from the 90-nm generation. The process employs a low-k dielectric material with a targeted effective interlayer dielectric constant of around 2.7.

Toshiba intends to prepare up to 13 usable metal layers for CMOS5 to provide design leeway for customers seeking to use existing IP with multiple layers on the 65-nm platform.
 
Back
Top