Americans don't hold monopoly on stupid ideas

Sorry for the excess off topic... I make 29g as a nurse part time a year... Not ashamed of that. It reflects my ambition a bit, though maybe not so much my interests hhe...
 
Sabastian said:
Sweeden has an average taxation I read somewhere of about 65%.
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Maybe OT by now, but I believe around 50% (53?) is the accepted number in academic circles.
With "accepted" I mean official.
 
Getting back on topic...

I would just like the point out that the question "Do you believe the US government could have ordered 9/11" is quite a bit different from "Do you believe the US government ordered 9/11".

German is a very precise language. It's quite well possible that the percentage that answered "yes" is reflecting the common sentiment that the current US administration is capable of such things rather than the believe that they had actually something to do with it.
 
I thought about that too. I don't know exactly how the question was worded, but if I was asked whether I thought that the US government could have ordered the 9/11 attacks, I could very well have answered yes if I felt literal-minded; the reason being, of course they could have ordered it. That I have a hard time finding words for how extremely unlikely I think it is that they actually did order it is then beside the point.
 
horvendile said:
I thought about that too. I don't know exactly how the question was worded, but
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IIRC from reading about it a couple of days ago on spiegel.de, the original question was worded in subjunctive form.
 
I think the suggestion that the US government or even Jewish secret service ordered this is completely preposterous. It is some pathetic left wing attempt to demonize America and its current leadership and is absolutely absurd. I am getting sick and tired of fighting with extremist left wing mentalities that continuously discredit the US with unfounded bullshit. These are not uncommon even here in Canada (Particularly in Arts Universities.) and I think that the mentality has gone too far to the left. They exagerate beyond reality to make America and the free market look as evil as possible.
 
horvendile said:
Sabastian said:
Sweeden has an average taxation I read somewhere of about 65%.
Click to expand...

Maybe OT by now, but I believe around 50% (53?) is the accepted number in academic circles.
With "accepted" I mean official.
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heh, did you guys have a reduction in taxes? Anyhow I should look around to see if I can find comparisons. I know that the tax system is more comprehensive in Canada and Sweden then the US over all and fairly substantial difference IIRC.
 
Sabastian said:
It is some pathetic left wing attempt to demonize America and its current leadership and is absolutely absurd.
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Dubya != all of America, thank god. Plus, the left does not need to attempt to demonize the US gov, it's doing a good job on it all by itself.
 
L233 said:
Sabastian said:
It is some pathetic left wing attempt to demonize America and its current leadership and is absolutely absurd.
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Dubya != all of America, thank god. Plus, the left does not need to attempt to demonize the US gov, it's doing a good job on it all by itself.
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How so?
 
If I recall correctly, Norway has the highest marginal tax rates in the world and led the world in GDP and GNP growth at various times.
 
Willmeister said:
If I recall correctly, Norway has the highest marginal tax rates in the world and led the world in GDP and GNP growth at various times.
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Never use Norway as an example when it comes to economics - they are wealthy for one reason alone: small population + oil.

Instead, use Denmark. They are almost nearly as wealthy, wealth they have worked for.
 
Never use Norway as an example when it comes to economics - they are wealthy for one reason alone: small population + oil.

Instead, use Denmark. They are almost nearly as wealthy, wealth they have worked for.
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I use it because it invalidates the belief that high taxes destroy economies. Government expenditures always have much higher multiplier effects than tax cuts or investment because governments invariably spend their dollars domestically, while investors can invest abroad sending the multiplier with it.

The most stunning example of the fallacy of tax cuts for 'investors' is when Nixon gave huge tax breaks to the large oil companies so they could use the savings for exploration during the oil crisis. Well, they didn't. One of the major firms, I think it was Mobil IIRC, used their tax breaks to buy the retail chain Montgomery Ward, while others squandered it as well. None of it went to exploration, which is what the cuts were earmarked for. It's in the book 'Fiasco' (I lent the book to my father I think and not totally sure on the title. I'm 90% sure it was called Fiasco.) which was about the origins and effects of the oil crisis, and how one little man, Muammar Quaddafi, broke the back of the large US oil companies which used their collective clout to keep corrupt repressive regimes in place. Once Occidental cut a deal with Libya, all the gentlemen's agreement they all had vanished. This eventually allowed for the rise of America's economic saviour of the last quarter part of the twentieth century, OPEC. Well, not just America's really. It created a pretty stable financial system for everyone. The world would be VERY different without OPEC.
 
I use it because it invalidates the belief that high taxes destroy economies.
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You don't understand. I'm telling you to use Denmark as an example instead since

1) Their taxes are equally high (give or take...)
2) Their wealth is not based on oil
 
You don't understand. I'm telling you to use Denamark as an example instead since

1) Their taxes ar eually high (give or take...)
2) Their wealth is not based on oil
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I understand perfectly. I just find Norway much better because it led in growth at times. Denmark never did. And just because you have oil, doesn't automatically mean growth or widespread prosperity. Look at Saudi Arabia. Aside from the leadership, the country is dirt poor, their government is neck deep in debt. If I'm not mistaken, they have the highest rate of government debt per capita on the planet.
 
Damn. Can't find the book. I might have lent it to pax.

It's a great book from the mid-1980s and shows how it was mostly bureaucratic passing-the-buck that created the crisis in the first place.
 
You're right, kudos to Norway for administering their oil income wisely, but that doesn't change the fact that it was/is easier for them to get wealthy than for most western nations.

Well, it was all a minor nitpick. Move along... :)
 
Sabastian said:
I think the suggestion that the US government or even Jewish secret service ordered this is completely preposterous.
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Of course it is.
I don't know who or what you're aiming at, but I just want to point out that saying (as an answer to a direct question) that the US government could have ordered the attack isn't the same thing as believing they did it.
A parallel: Our prime minister was shot in 1986. While I, as an answer to a direct question, think that technically it could indeed have been ordered by the leader of one of the opposing parties, it's so extremely unlikely that it's not worth consideration. (It might have been in some other countries, but not here, not then.)

I do not deny that there are those who believe that US govt actually did order the attack, but it'll be a mistake to assume they are in majority or even a significant minority. I, at least, have never met anyone believing it.

They exagerate beyond reality to make America and the free market look as evil as possible.
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General comment, not necessarily connected to what you mean or say here:
I have a feeling that when one dares criticize US over something here, one is often showered in comments that basically boil down to "Well, we're richer and stronger than you and you're a left wing conspiracy monger so shut up". After a while, that gets tiring.

Yes, there are those who believe that everything USA does and stand for is bad. But they are not many, and there are certainly Americans that believe that everything non-American is bad and everything that is American is good.

Yes, there are European media promoting conspiracy theories. Just as undoubtedly there are American media that do that as well. I don't think bringing up the worst examples is representative for Europe.

Criticizing the US for some specific issue is not the same as believing free market is bad.

So, to whom it may concern:
Pretty pretty please with sugar on top, please stop insulting the rest of the world on sight, OK? If not else, it's bad for the debate climate.
 
Sabastian said:
heh, did you guys have a reduction in taxes?
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Unfortunately not... :(
The 53% number is, I believe, the state's tax income as percentage of GNP. It was below 50% some years ago (still extremely high) but has gone up.
 
The problem with indymedia is they usually assume the American government is perfect and thus any failure is deliberate, unless of course it doesn't suit their needs, then the American government is incompetent.

Unlike we see in Hollywood movies, all the branches of the US government are not tied together and work in perfect cooperation. Even if someone noticed a plane off course, it's not going to be reported to the military immediately for shoot down. Even if someone thought of using planes as missiles, not everyone including the low level air traffic control guys are going to know it.

They in fact might think the plane has mechanical problems and lost communications, but is taking a course to try and return to the airport or something. The last thing in anyone's minds is that the plane is going to be used as a weapon. Up until that time, everything thought hijacking was for negotiations.
 
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