Americans don't hold monopoly on stupid ideas

Sabastian said:
PAX why shouldn't we allow for doctors to practice a private clinic? Why couldn't we have privatized health care? It would relieve the weight on the public system. Make an appointment to get into see a specialist and see how long it will take. 6 month average depending on the sort of specialist you want to see here in Fredericton. The Canadian system should allow for private health care and we ought to end this ridiculous government monopoly.
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Well Sabastian If I could Id have you talk to my sister... Its easy to talk about allowing private care (which already exists to a very large degree actually) but then you'd see the costs of both paying cash and getting GOOD private coverage and trust me you'd get a cold shower kinda like car dealers still give me once in a while hhe...

We're very close to allowing private care. Docs are virtually all private businesses. Id rather see it, if it has to happen, -after- whatever quotas exist in medical schools are COMPLETELY removed. We have huge shortages right now. Any private system will see very high costs for high quality care for a few people and much longer wait lines for the vast majority of us left to deal with what ressources are left both in terms of personnel and tax base (rich will demand tax refunds for abandoning public care).

At best we need 10-15 years to prepare for a dual system. But implement today and watch waiting lists double and triple to British levels.
 
diarrhea_splatter said:
RussSchultz said:
diarrhea_splatter said:
I swear I think I hear sheep around here.
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You want sheep? Go to indymedia.org and see all the conspiracy theorists flock. Its amazing so many people can believe such utter bullshit.
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Sorry to get off topic everyone.
See, though, this is what I don't understand. If people back up what they say with facts, why do people still call it a conspiracy theory or as you put it "utter bullshit'? The way I see it is if you have the facts, what's there to argue about
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because the conclusion should be drawn from the 'facts' and not the other way around.
 
pax said:
Well Sabastian If I could Id have you talk to my sister... Its easy to talk about allowing private care (which already exists to a very large degree actually) but then you'd see the costs of both paying cash and getting GOOD private coverage and trust me you'd get a cold shower kinda like car dealers still give me once in a while hhe...
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Err, there are no private clinics providing the pediatric care I am talking about. Christ for a while there people in Fredericton couldn't even get a family physician. I don't know I think that private clinics may provide a much higher degree of service. I would think that it should also qualify as some sort of tax write off as well.

We're very close to allowing private care. Docs are virtually all private businesses. Id rather see it, if it has to happen, -after- whatever quotas exist in medical schools are COMPLETELY removed. We have huge shortages right now. Any private system will see very high costs for high quality care for a few people and much longer wait lines for the vast majority of us left to deal with what ressources are left both in terms of personnel and tax base (rich will demand tax refunds for abandoning public care).
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No question that there are massive shortages I know a few doctors that have moved across the boarder to open their own clinics. If I used private health services I would expect a tax rebate sense such a large portion of the money you pay in taxes is set aside for health care not allowing for the write off would be tax gouging. Oh, but I doubt that the government would give the money back the parasites they are.


At best we need 10-15 years to prepare for a dual system. But implement today and watch waiting lists double and triple to British levels.
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10-15 years is way too long the system will fall apart before then considering the aging baby boomers.
 
If it falls apart itll be thru those med school quotas and persistent gross underfunding of health care. If the US can afford 16% we should too (but we dont really need near that much). Unless you and I get MUCH better paying jobs we wont afford most private care...

Physician shortages are almost completely due to quotas and our beloved right wing govs and CMA's refusal to accept the huge waiting lists of doctors who want to come work here. Ah the power of corporate and elite lobbies. Some docs do go across the lines to make more money. Nothing stops us from getting care there. But the price is insane for some procedures...

Most of the doctors in my town are immigrants. There are about 80 surgeons in T.O. right now waiting to get a chance to be allowed thru the long process of studying and evaluating of their skills before they are allowed to practice.

Some have been waiting over 5 years... they drive taxis and deliver pizza...
 
I got June 17th... what a joke I dont pay NEARLY that much... Fraser is well know for its distortions. Its a corporate financed lobby hiding behind its 'non-profit' status with a nice sounding name...
 
HOLY SHIT! It wouldn't even take my income, but when I cut it down to 110k canadien, I'd have to pay 50-65k of it in taxes!

fook that. I'm staying in Texas.
 
pax said:
If it falls apart itll be thru those med school quotas and persistent gross underfunding of health care. If the US can afford 16% we should too (but we dont really need near that much). Unless you and I get MUCH better paying jobs we wont afford most private care...

Physician shortages are almost completely due to quotas and our beloved right wing govs and CMA's refusal to accept the huge waiting lists of doctors who want to come work here. Ah the power of corporate and elite lobbies. Some docs do go across the lines to make more money. Nothing stops us from getting care there. But the price is insane for some procedures...

Most of the doctors in my town are immigrants. There are about 80 surgeons in T.O. right now waiting to get a chance to be allowed thru the long process of studying and evaluating of their skills before they are allowed to practice.

Some have been waiting over 5 years... they drive taxis and deliver pizza...
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The problem is that the system is not "grossly" under funded and the simple fact of the matter is providing high quality health care is costly public health or not. AFAIK health care is the number one expense particularly at the provincial level where it is costing a full 40% of tax revenues. They should be introducing privatized health care immediately to reduce the strain on the public system and allow in time for tax write offs for using private health care.

The only people who are actually getting "free" health care are on welfare, everyone pays but the service we are getting is sucking in a major way and the government knows it. I get tired of explaining to everyone that our health care is not "free" and that we pay lots for it. It is like they think the government has its own money but nothing could be further from the truth. Raising expenditure is not the answer the extra money will just get abused and soon after there is an insistence for more money.
 
pax said:
I got June 17th... what a joke I dont pay NEARLY that much... Fraser is well know for its distortions. Its a corporate financed lobby hiding behind its 'non-profit' status with a nice sounding name...
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Tax tax tax.

The Personal Tax Freedom Day calculator, like Tax Freedom Day, includes all taxes from all levels of government that Canadians pay. This includes: income & sales taxes; liquor, tobacco, amusement & other excise taxes; automobile, fuel, & motor vehicle licence taxes; CPP/QPP and EI contributions, medical & hospital taxes; property taxes; import duties; profit taxes; and natural resource levies.
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The form doesn't work for me because my salary converted to Canadian dollars is too high I guess (don't believe me, try converting a US salary of $120k to Canadian dollars and put it in, that's about the limit it will take) (I doubt I could make such a salary in Canadian, so the comparison is meaningless. I'd pay a "lower salary" tax as well.)

I paid about $40,000 federal and $20,000 state last year, or $60k total, but that's on the joint return with my wife, I don't know what I paid individually. I do know that my effective federal tax rate was about 23%, since I am diverting money to 401k, trusts, and to a mortgage, plus writing off stock market loses. Of course, I also paid about $8400 in property taxes as well.


I actually don't think Canadian tax is all that bad compared to Europe tax wise. I could probably live comfortably in Canada, even under a higher tax. I would find Sweden intolerable.

(BTW, I don't bring up my salary to brag. It's fairly average at the company I work for. Most CS people with 10 years experience will be $90k or above. It's actually kind of tasteless I know, but I only have my own experience and numbers to draw on to relate to you the types I things I have to go thru (like paying 2.5x as much for a house to live here))
 
Sweden's actually not bad under expat tax laws (or was when I was looking at doing some contracting there)
 
DemoCoder said:
I actually don't think Canadian tax is all that bad compared to Europe tax wise. I could probably live comfortably in Canada, even under a higher tax. I would find Sweden intolerable.
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Like I said it is a ruff number. Sweeden has an average taxation I read somewhere of about 65%.
 
I certainly havent said it was free... And any privatising will take away limited ressources especially interms of personnel. That the system is underfunded is a fact. Not only in terms of GDP but docs here make excellent income (in some cases beter than US docs as my sis makes 150 000$ can with her buddy in Maine making 68g US both of them being GP's, US specialists make a LOT more though...) off of that lower gdp which is ALSO based on what is 2\3 per capita gdp of the US so compounded that much less...

CPP and EI is a tax? I dont pay tobacco or much liquor ( I have 2-3 beer 3-4 times a year so virtually nothing to talk about) Property is 700$, income is 3900$ Medical and hospital tax? Profit tax? Natural resource levy?

That list is obviously not making sense for me at least. I dont pay alot of what is listed there... I know from that list I must be something like 50% under Fraser's fanciful average.

I think such a tool exist in the states... Itd be interesting to compare its list of 'taxes'. And compare with the canadian one... of course we'd have to add average health care premium to the us one...
 
pax said:
I certainly havent said it was free... And any privatising will take away limited ressources especially interms of personnel.

CPP and EI is a tax? I dont pay tobacco or much liquor ( I have 2-3 beer 3-4 times a year so virtually nothing to talk about) Property is 700$, income is 3900$ Medical and hospital tax? Profit tax? Natural resource levy?

That list is obviously not making sense for me at least. I dont pay alot of what is listed there... I know from that list I must be something like 50% under average.

I think such a tool exist in the states... Itd be interesting to compare its list of 'taxes'. And compare with the canadian one... of course we'd have to add average health care premium to the us one...
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Income tax and sales tax add up to approx 34% by them selves. If you drive a car gas and oil taxes are 50% of total price. Then there are property taxes. Alcohol has extremely high taxes, tobacco is mostly taxes on and on. In terms of health care I would rather then the government do it for me look after it myself in a privatized health care plan. In short there is no reason for the government to be gouging at our pockets so much and so often. Our health care system is going down the tubes and throwing more tax money at the problem is not the answer.
 
My income taxes are 16% plus 10% prov, thats 26% and 700$ property pushes that to about 30%... GST I figured to about a grand per year but theres no way I pay that much in gas tax... I spend 50$ a month in gas total.

Well if you think you can throw less money than as is and retain personnel with the us right next door Id like to know how you can do it.

Truth is as a nurse Im slightly better paid with better benefits than nurses in Maine. Docs are a mixed bag tho.

Fraser had me at than 53%. I skirt maybe 40%... If you ask me on both sides of the border taxes are too high for the middle class. But if I had to pay quality HC premiums at my income level Id be at 50% income hands down.

One CTV show compared Quebec (highest tax in canada) with Virginia. And Virginia when you included health care premiums that had virtually same coverage as Canada was a higher 'tax' bracket for middle class incomes. It was done for single and couple and family of four...

Sister in law is a psychiatrist who worked for a time in Boston and she spent about half her time arguing with insurance companies about having coverage respected.

She came back to Montreal after 6 months of frustration. Id rather battle the gov than insurance companies...
 
pax said:
My income taxes are 16% plus 10% prov, thats 26% and 700$ property pushes that to about 30%... GST I figured to about a grand per year but theres no way I pay that much in gas tax... I spend 50$ a month in gas total.

Well if you think you can throw less money than as is and retain personnel with the us right next door Id like to know how you can do it.

Truth is as a nurse Im slightly better paid with better benefits than nurses in Maine. Docs are a mixed bag tho.

Fraser had me at than 53%. I skirt maybe 40%... If you ask me on both sides of the border taxes are too high for the middle class. But if I had to pay quality HC premiums at my income level Id be at 50% income hands down.

One CTV show compared Quebec (highest tax in canada) with Virginia. And Virginia when you included health care premiums that had virtually same coverage as Canada was a higher 'tax' bracket for middle class incomes. It was done for single and couple and family of four...

Sister in law is a psychiatrist who worked for a time in Boston and she spent about half her time arguing with insurance companies about having coverage respected.

She came back to Montreal after 6 months of frustration. Id rather battle the gov than insurance companies...
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Your HST is 15%.

My aunt is a nurse she has been offered better pay and benefits in the states.

Psychiatry is something that ought to be disputed in my opinion, most of the time they do the job a good friend could do for free.

Except in Virginia they probably have considerably better health care services.
 
Well as hated as the 15% hst is I dont pay on everything I buy... I took the time to see how much I paid on average and it came out to slightly under 1400$ per year with that 340$ I get back thru the rebate so 1000$ approx.

To get same things covered in maine with blue cross that I have thru medicare Id have to pay about 200$ a month. Thats 2400$ a year... or more than double hst alone... or almost double provincial sales tax.

Checked on US HC premiums a few years ago tho... they probly have increased.

What also serves skew the debate however is the relative higher can gov debt we pay thru taxes. This cant be helped in terms of average amount of dollars per persons we pay. If Can and US had same per capita debt the picture would look even better for canada...
 
pax said:
Well as hated as the 15% hst is I dont pay on everything I buy... I took the time to see how much I paid on average and it came out to slightly under 1400$ per year with that 340$ I get back thru the rebate so 1000$ approx.

To get same things covered in maine with blue cross that I have thru medicare Id have to pay about 200$ a month. Thats 2400$ a year... or more than double hst alone... or almost double provincial sales tax.

Checked on US HC premiums a few years ago tho... they probly have increased.

What also serves skew the debate however is the relative higher can gov debt we pay thru taxes. This cant be helped in terms of average amount of dollars per persons we pay. If Can and US had same per capita debt the picture would look even better for canada...
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Yeah, the debt in Canada is bad per capita. But with these budget surpluses as opposed to deficits in Canada the US is catching up. I don't really know what to do about the health care crisis in Canada I don't think throwing more money at the problem makes the future dilemma we are headed into go away and where is all the money going to come from? Increased taxes? Absolutely not. While the economy is growing at a decent rate the population is ageing. Immigration? We will have to extensively increase the number of young and educated immigrants just to have the tax base to afford current expenditures. I think also allowing for older people to work beyond retirement would be appropriate, that is if they want to. I am not even sure we can get privatized medicine to bother to try to compete with a 100% subsidized government monopoly, but I think it would be worth a try. In the end our system would look more like a US model but still have universal coverage. There is a market for private services obviously with customers going across the boarder to get services. How much of a market I suppose is the question. I certainly did not like waiting for years (nearly 7 years in total and I had to go to Halifax once.) to see a variety of doctors when I broke my back in a car accident.
 
In terms of gdp HC is not that bad, YET... in 1949 it was 12% of gdp. In fact when you consider the huge increases in knowledge and new treatements and ageing we are doing pretty damn good. Immigration is a positive step to avoid the excess aging of the overall pop.

Not sure its a complete answer tho as we can only absord so many immigrants while maintaining incomes and thus that part of the tax base. I think if we keep giong the japanese route of collapsing demographics we'll have a bit of a hard time with the transition to a new era of immigrants.

Money spent per person should be stabilized at some point. I dont think we've reached it. The US has a much worse prob than we do with costs if you think we do already.

Trust me when I tell you. Waiting lists here are not much better, or worse rather, than private insurers refusing you treatment. That issue is chronic in the states and not just in psychiatry. A huge legal industry has sprung up for litigation between insurers and insured and the doctors involved.

I wouldnt care for that here. If our waiting lists were as bad you'd see that industry here to cater to those same people in litigation vs the gov...
 
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