Alternative distribution to optical disks : SSD, cards, and download*

That would be true...except we can't downscale UHD BD to 1080p displays yet. HDCP 2.2 requirement alone practically excludes all non UHDTVs. I have been downloading 4K demos for playing on my plasmas and some of them having bitrate in excess of 100Mbps really look great downscaled so I was looking forward to UHD BDs, but not anymore.

My understanding is that yes HDCP2.2 isn't backwards compatible with previous standards but if a UHD Blu-ray player was hooked up to an older TV, the player would downscale the image to 1080, 1080i or 720p and therefore be able to use an existing HDCP protocol. I believe HDCP2.2 is only required for transmitting 4K video, not video downscaled from 4K.

Is this not the case?
 
It depends if the studios succeeded in requiring HDCP 2.2 for downscaled signals too on the playback device, I honestly don't know.
 
My understanding is that yes HDCP2.2 isn't backwards compatible with previous standards but if a UHD Blu-ray player was hooked up to an older TV, the player would downscale the image to 1080, 1080i or 720p and therefore be able to use an existing HDCP protocol. I believe HDCP2.2 is only required for transmitting 4K video, not video downscaled from 4K.

Is this not the case?

Unfortunately no. It's actually 480p. That's how Onkyo receivers roll at the moment. Sony FMP-X1 even refuses to run on non-HDCP 2.2 HDMI input.
 
Unfortunately no. It's actually 480p. That's how Onkyo receivers roll at the moment. Sony FMP-X1 even refuses to run on non-HDCP 2.2 HDMI input.
Is that what the standard mandates or a quirk of Onkyo receivers? It would seem a mighty strange decision if the only downscale option for 4K video is 480p given for most displays that would result in an upscale for the panel.
 
Is that what the standard mandates or a quirk of Onkyo receivers? It would seem a mighty strange decision if the only downscale option for 4K video is 480p given for most displays that would result in an upscale for the panel.

It's definitely a choice from Onkyo's part. Like MrFox said, I think manufacturers can choose what resolution to downscale to, and Onkyo chose 480p, while Sony and Netflix have chosen to completely block it. We'll see whether standard mandates for downscaling is 480p or not once UHD BD players and more HDCP 2.2 compliant HDMI 2.0 AV receivers start rolling out end of this year.
 
Why are receivers taking so long to appear? I bought a Bravia X8505 last August and two of the four HDMI ports are specified to a resolution of 3840 x 2160 at a maximum rate of 60 frames per second and carry support for HDCP 2.2, MHL and ARC.

Shame I've got nothing to plug into them apart from a Mac. The 60fps 4K video I have played on the set looks astonishing. Roll on the future!
 
Very flawed calculations.

Flash is very expensive (relatively, to both BD and HDD) Sony already uses 8Gbit chips and likely will do a 14nm revision next year. And how could Nin make a cheaper and more powerful console than Sony? CUH-1200 is very cost effective.
Flash isn't very expensive at all. 16GB Flash sells for less than $5 for singles, retail, to consumer. Production cost is way below that, and still dropping. For game distribution you buy substantial volume, so what would cost be in the 2017-2025 time frame? Moreover, it allows tailoring the size of the media for the specific game. If it fits within 8GB, cost drops even further. If it needs 64GB, no problem. And it allows physical retail presence and distribution for those with slow network access or limited data plans.

SSD costs more/GB since it needs to be qualified for more write cycles, and because controllers still cost money. Write cycle stamina isn't critical in a console, and two years into the future controller cost will be down. Plus of course Flash prices drop.
A 128GB SSD costs $40. Again right now, in singles, to consumer, retail. What do you think they will cost in 2017, if you buy 10 million of them? That's why I put in 250GB as an option at $40.

Why are you comparing to Sony? You might as well compare to the XboxOne with similar production costs, which is now selling for $240 + VAT including the Master Chief Collection over here. The PS4 is very sensibly sold at a profit, since Sony can use some healthy influx of cash, and can afford to yield some market share to keep profits up. And both the PS4 and the XBoxOne cost more to produce than the system I outlined above.

Design cost of the APU is the big unknown, but the reason I went through this exercise was to demonstrate that Nintendo is perfectly well capable of producing a very competitive me-too console for introduction 3-4 years into the present generation life cycle. It would be very strange otherwise really. The question is rather whether this is something they aspire to. Nothing I've seen or heard from them indicates so - indeed, they seem quite dismissive of doing the same old, only with more FLOPS. (Incidentally, I think both sides to that argument has merit - more hardware capabilities theoretically gives space for new takes on gameplay, or richer versions on traditional genres. On the other hand, motion control for instance clearly resulted in qualitatively new experiences irrespective of GPU capabilities. I don't have to fully agree with Nintendo to understand and respect their stance, and I have no idea what kind of device the NX will turn out to be. Maybe it will be more straightforwardly driven by market flow this time around. But - "entirely new concept"?)
 
Entropy, With console manufaturing every cent matters. BD and HDD much less expensive than flash anyway. Cheap flash is not faster than BD too. And slower than HDD.

I think new handheld next year.
 
Okay, so Nintendo aren't going to hire MS, but MS's successes do highlight that Nintendo could use emulation for BC if they wanted to (and were prepared to hire and spend on it).

I know that the cost / benefit thing about BC comes up often and I don't want to retread that conversation here, other than to say that Nintendo can have it while avoiding either adding a WiiU to their next system, or basing the next system around it. (Neither of which are very attractive propositions).

As long as Nintendo go for a reasonably fast device and include an optical drive (and second wireless connection?) they can approach their next gen box completely unencumbered and go for a completely fresh start. Which is a good thing, and perhaps overdue?
I don't know how Nintendo own "virtual console" performs against competing emulator, I know it doesn't support Gamecube or the Wii as this is covered by BC. Honestly if Nintendo is going in the right direction they should ease (if not help) the port of the existing emulators to its new system. If wish they could manage to land an agreement (with the proper parties) to sell old PS1 / PS2 / PSP / Saturn /Dreamcast so they can sell games of those platform online too. If they don't they can still sell emulators ala Google, it can be a Win / win situation for publishers of those games or they can chose to never see a pennie and have people to rely on illegal download...
Nintendo has fans they need to communicate with the community, help it, etc. They have to be the retro gaming king (or try).

Wrt to drives, I read again the IHS estimate for the XB1, there is 32$ and 37$ going into the optical drive and the HDD (supposedly 28$ & 37$ for the PS4). That is some serious money, you could pass on the HDD but that is extremely bothering nowadays for patches, on handheld the games is lesser and SD card serves the purpose of a HDD.
Toying with those IHS number one can see how fast you 200 $ if you include an optical and a hard drives. It the same trend in net-book, laptop, or mini desktop, manufacturers pass on HDD and optical drives: too costly.
Flash isn't very expensive at all. 16GB Flash sells for less than $5 for singles, retail, to consumer. Production cost is way below that, and still dropping. For game distribution you buy substantial volume, so what would cost be in the 2017-2025 time frame? Moreover, it allows tailoring the size of the media for the specific game. If it fits within 8GB, cost drops even further. If it needs 64GB, no problem. And it allows physical retail presence and distribution for those with slow network access or limited data plans.
8GB -16GB is not dramatic either,as games would sell at a higher price than 3DS game card, that still that is a lot of money and I would discard more than 16GB. I'm undecided wrt game card as whereas it costs way more it seems there really is a demand for that type of media, really plug and play, sturdy. DVD, BRD are mostly free, flash storage compares badly though I guess in sometime it is better to sell something than nothing.
Though say Nintendo pays 4$ a 16GB game card 2$ or 3$ for the SD card shipping with the console, whatever costs the game card ports and 2 SD card ports, it will take still take a while before whatever they could have saved using BRD will cover the expense of the HDD and optical disc player.
It saves a lot on a system, that is for sure and whereas Microsoft allowed at the end of the 360 era the use of USB key, Nintendo could include 2 SD card slots. Even though Nintendo would have to impose more constraints on publishers than MSFT and Sony do (day one huge patches), it can mean delayed games, etc and bother publishers though honestly I would agree as PC/Consoles practices are getting out of control.
 
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I don't know how Nintendo own "virtual console" performs against competing emulator, I know it doesn't support Gamecube or the Wii as this is covered by BC. Honestly if Nintendo is going in the right direction they should ease (if not help) the port of the existing emulators to its new system. If wish they could manage to land an agreement (with the proper parties) to sell old PS1 / PS2 / PSP / Saturn /Dreamcast so they can sell games of those platform online too. If they don't they can still sell emulators ala Google, it can be a Win / win situation for publishers of those games or they can chose to never see a pennie and have people to rely on illegal download...
Nintendo has fans they need to communicate with the community, help it, etc. They have to be the retro gaming king (or try).

Wrt to drives, I read again the IHS estimate for the XB1, there is 32$ and 37$ going into the optical drive and the HDD (supposedly 28$ & 37$ for the PS4). That is some serious money, you could pass on the HDD but that is extremely bothering nowadays for patches, on handheld the games is lesser and SD card serves the purpose of a HDD.
Toying with those IHS number one can see how fast you 200 $ if you include an optical and a hard drives. It the same trend in net-book, laptop, or mini desktop, manufacturers pass on HDD and optical drives: too costly.

8GB -16GB is not dramatic either,as games would sell at a higher price than 3DS game card, that still that is a lot of money and I would discard more than 16GB. I'm undecided wrt game card as whereas it costs way more it seems there really is a demand for that type of media, really plug and play, sturdy. DVD, BRD are mostly free, flash storage compares badly though I guess in some it is better to sell something than nothing.
Though say Nintendo pays 4$ a 16GB game card 2$ or 3$ for the SD card shipping with the console, whatever costs the game card ports and 2 SD card ports, it will take still take a while before whatever they could have saved using BRD will cover the expense of the HDD and optical disc player.
It saves a lot on a system, that is for sure and whereas Microsoft allowed at the end of the 360 era the use of USB key, Nintendo could include 2 SD card slots. Even though Nintendo would have to impose more constraints on publishers than MSFT and Sony do (day one huge patches), it can mean delayed games, etc and bother publishers though honestly I would agree as PC/Consoles practices are getting out of control.
 
8GB -16GB is not dramatic either,as games would sell at a higher price than 3DS game card, that still that is a lot of money and I would discard more than 16GB. I'm undecided wrt game card as whereas it costs way more it seems there really is a demand for that type of media, really plug and play, sturdy. DVD, BRD are mostly free, flash storage compares badly though I guess in some it is better to sell something than nothing.
Though say Nintendo pays 4$ a 16GB game card 2$ or 3$ for the SD card shipping with the console, whatever costs the game card ports and 2 SD card ports, it will take still take a while before whatever they could have saved using BRD will cover the expense of the HDD and optical disc player.
In my post above I made reference to retail Flash costs to consumer, in quantities of one. It might be useful to look at it from the production side as well, to see where the span is for quantity purchases. Production cost of 16/15nm NAND is roughly 1c/GB or 100GB/$, if we exclude equipment depreciation cost. If we try to factor that into the equation we end up at roughly 2c/GB or 50GB/$. That is right now, with the trend going downward, obviously, mainly through 3D NAND. It is definitely at a point where it can be used as a distribution medium, and opens up some interesting possibilities - for instance you could patch to the distribution media rather than internal storage, different size media for different games and so on.
 
In my post above I made reference to retail Flash costs to consumer, in quantities of one. It might be useful to look at it from the production side as well, to see where the span is for quantity purchases. Production cost of 16/15nm NAND is roughly 1c/GB or 100GB/$, if we exclude equipment depreciation cost. If we try to factor that into the equation we end up at roughly 2c/GB or 50GB/$.
I highly doubt these prices. Also it does not include additional circuitry/case.

There were debates whether BD should be inside protector case because it made media more expensive. Just a case, not additional PCB, assembly, controller, programming, components needed for flash.

And BD is just stamping:

pmjef.gif
 
Nobody is arguing that optical are not cheaper. It is somehow irrelevant to whether it is doable to use flash for games.
 
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I don't think 20 million units is too much, especially for ultra cheap low quality and low powered machine. IIRC Mike Pachter said that Sony ordered 18 million and MS 12 million units for their first year (1.5 million and 1 million units per month). Loss ain't that big of a deal for Nintendo, even if full priced lifetime sales would for some reason be bellow that. They can just cut down production lines to zero like they did with Wii U after the first year. They ain't gonna cry over 150 dollar machine (that might only cost 100-125 for 'em to produce) But yeah, I agree that they are insane, if they for some reason choose to go 300+ dollar range.
 
Flash is a pipe dream, cheap eMMC perf is far below even 5400rpm hdds (relevant because optical is now just a transport media to install bits to your HDD). However cheap flash gets stamping optical disks will be cheaper still. Besides which raw NAND chips are good for nothing, you have to mount them to a PCB, mount that in a plastic box and flash them. All of these steps take time and add cost relative to the alternative of stamping out plastic discs. Consumers have already voted and said 'crappy first time play wait times are fine' back in the PS1 vs N64 days so the only advantage of flash is basically moot. We'll get to download only before we see a return to carts
 
Windows 10 is going to be distributed on USB at retail so not sure "pipe dream" would exactly be the best way to categorize it.
 
With price markups to match
Leaked SKUs suggest that the USB flash drive version of Windows 10 Home costs $144.23, around $24 extra, while the Windows 10 Pro version will cost $238, around $38 more.
Relating this to games, 1) Games aren't $120, so an extra few dollars loss on distribution is all the more significant
2) MS are suggesting a USB stick is $20 more cost than a disc. So $80 USB games instead of $60 BRD games.
3) It's installed to HDD, so flash performance isn't an issue (although it's probably a higher end controller on the stick). Running a game of crappy slow flash chip at lower than HDD speeds is going to be a significant bottleneck

Hence 'flash distributed games, no HDD install' does look something of a pipe-dream. It's only worked on handhelds because the performance requirements and limitations of optical allowed and necessitated it.
 
Windows 10 is going to be distributed on USB at retail so not sure "pipe dream" would exactly be the best way to categorize it.

The proportion of Win10 installs from physical media is tiny, most folks get Windows as an OEM install and the rest as a digital upgrade (esp with MS upgrade program). Besides which all versions of Win10 fit on a single DVD but those are increasingly uncommon in modern notebooks so USB is the new O/S media. In fact if you ring up support for OEM Win8 reinstall media it comes on USB and always has.

For a mass market games console flash is DOA, optical is cheaper especially at the 50GB+ range and you can guarantee everyone has the drive (unlike in the modern PC space).
 
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