A tale of two GF FX's

[WaltC]

No nVidia employee said the GFFX was going to cost $600 - and if one did, I've missed it.
Someone working at a nVidia partner said 600 Euros in Europe.
And if you assume that's $600, I guess you're living in America.

600 Euros include a 20% VAT tax. It also includes importation costs and higher taxes for a lot of things.
Something which costs 600 Euros would probably cost between $400 and $450 in the USA. Lucky Americans!

The fact, now, is that the GFFX Ultra preorders are going to be at $399
Maybe beside the preorders, the GFFX Regular will be at $399 and the GFFX Ultra at $499. Or maybe the prize for the Ultra will remain $399 and Brian is just hoping for more people to preorder by making this vague.
We don't know. It would just be speculation right now. And quite futile speculation, too.


Uttar

Yes, you missed it. Andrew Humber, and another nVidia employee stated the card would be $600 Euros, which Humber stated would equal about $640. In fact, if memory serves, I actually placed the link in a comment on one of the news stories on the B3D front page a couple of days ago. Sigh, I guess I'll have to go and hunt down my own link...

Here's the link:

http://www.techspot.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3978

 

[Crusher]

I don't pay with Euros, I pay with dollars, and CompUSA, BestBuy, and Newegg are all charing $399 for 500 MHz GeForce FX cards. How is this so difficult to understand?

 

[Arun]

Err, 600 Euros is $640 if you don't consider taxes and stuff.
Trust me, 600 Euros *don't* translate to anything near $640 because most of that cost come from EU-specific taxes & importation costs

Actually, it does make $640 *IF* you took a flight to Europe and bought a GFFX there using your US Dollars, it would cost you $640 ( + flight costs, of course )
But you ain't gonna do that, right?

Oh, and could please stop putting the "$" sign for Euros. I find it confusing... It's called a €


Uttar

 

[WaltC]

I don't pay with Euros, I pay with dollars, and CompUSA, BestBuy, and Newegg are all charing $399 for 500 MHz GeForce FX cards. How is this so difficult to understand?

FYI, I pay in dollars, too, and the exchange rate for Euros is almost exactly 1 Euro = 1 dollar.

As to why it is "difficult to understand" take a look at this link:

http://www.techspot.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3978

 

[WaltC]

Oh, and could please stop putting the "$" sign for Euros. I find it confusing... It's called a €


Uttar

I'm glad you have that symbol on your keyboard--I don't. Don't worry, if I mean "euros" I'll state "euros" (which hopefully should eliminate the confusion for you.)

http://www.techspot.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3978

Uttar, now that I've enlightened you (through above link) on just what some nVidia employees have indeed said, how do you reconcile the two utterly disparate price points?

Doomtrooper suggests that it may be a $200 difference because of an extra 128mbs of DDR II (for a total of 256mbs)....seems a reasonable guess to me.

 

[Arun]

You're really gonna make me insane, Walt. Stop making me insist on how us Europeans are getting ripped off!

That $640 is the price for EUROPE. It's just there for reference, so you Americans can see how we're getting screwed.
We europeans get a LOT of taxes you don't get. Such as a 21% VAT tax. There's also the importation costs.

When YOU Americans get a GPU at $399, we easily get it at around 550 Euros or more.
Radeon 9700 Pros in Europe are still at around 500 Euros ( between 470 and 500 Euros here in Belgium )
And it's been available for a LONG time, it was even more at launch.

What more do I have to explain?


Uttar

EDIT: I'd like to add, however, that I don't quite see how a $399 card could become 600 Euros with a so high Euro. With the current exchange rate, I'd bet it would be more like 550 Euros.
So non-preorder costs for the GFFX Ultra could very well be $429 or $449 - but probably not $500

 

[demalion]

Uttar's comments don't contradict that thread.

That interview occured in Europe, not here (perhaps that wasn't clear?), so both the price and the currency are for Europe...

The currency was converted to US currency (it looks like that was done by the interviewer)...but the price is still the price in Europe.

It is possible for the price to be the equivalent of $600 (or $640 as it seems more accurate) in Europe and the equivalent of $400 in the US, as Uttar points out.

 

[Crusher]

I see a 2nd hand quote from someone who asked what the price would be in Europe, and a response that it would be "around 600 Euros", which he further approximated to be "around 640 Dollars". I don't see where he said that it would cost $640 in the U.S. I also don't see anyone charging $640, $599, or even $499 for any GeForceFX based product in the U.S. What I see are retailers selling GeForce FX cards operating at 500 MHz with 128 MB of 500 MHz DDR2 memory for $399 as pre-orders. There is no mention of additional charges applying beyond shipping and handeling (which is free in the case of the Best Buy pre-order), which there would legally have to be if the final price was more than $399. I see BFG's website where they have a large advertisement stating that you can pre-order their GeForce FX 5800 Ultra at Best Buy and CompUSA. I see BFG's product description page, where the only GeForce FX product they have is the 5800 Ultra, which they list as having 500 MHz core and memory clocks. I also see Newegg selling the PNY GeForce FX card for $399, with which they provide a direct link to this page on PNY's website that clearly lists it as having 500 MHz operating speeds.

I don't see anyone, anywhere, telling me that if I buy a 500 MHz GeForce FX product in the United States of America, that I will be paying more than $399 (which is already a rediculous price for a video card IMO).

 

[Evildeus]

Oh, and could please stop putting the "$" sign for Euros. I find it confusing... It's called a €


Uttar

I'm glad you have that symbol on your keyboard--I don't. Don't worry, if I mean "euros" I'll state "euros" (which hopefully should eliminate the confusion for you.)

http://www.techspot.com/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=3978

Uttar, now that I've enlightened you (through above link) on just what some nVidia employees have indeed said, how do you reconcile the two utterly disparate price points?

Doomtrooper suggests that it may be a $200 difference because of an extra 128mbs of DDR II (for a total of 256mbs)....seems a reasonable guess to me.

Well, it seems you have no clue of what is happening in Europe

When we buy something it's between 33% and 50% more expensive that in the USA. Makes at least 10% more for transport, resellers, etc. and +20% for VAT. In Europe it's 499€ without VAT so 599€ including VAT

 

[WaltC]

I see a 2nd hand quote from someone who asked what the price would be in Europe, and a response that it would be "around 600 Euros", which he further approximated to be "around 640 Dollars". I don't see where he said that it would cost $640 in the U.S. I also don't see anyone charging $640, $599, or even $499 for any GeForceFX based product in the U.S. What I see are retailers selling GeForce FX cards operating at 500 MHz with 128 MB of 500 MHz DDR2 memory for $399 as pre-orders. There is no mention of additional charges applying beyond shipping and handeling (which is free in the case of the Best Buy pre-order), which there would legally have to be if the final price was more than $399. I see BFG's website where they have a large advertisement stating that you can pre-order their GeForce FX 5800 Ultra at Best Buy and CompUSA. I see BFG's product description page, where the only GeForce FX product they have is the 5800 Ultra, which they list as having 500 MHz core and memory clocks. I also see Newegg selling the PNY GeForce FX card for $399, with which they provide a direct link to this page on PNY's website that clearly lists it as having 500 MHz operating speeds.

What I don't see is anyone, anywhere, telling me that if I buy a 500 MHz GeForce FX product in the United States of America, that I will be paying more than $399.

Impressive....oooooo.....*chuckle* What I see is a *nVidia employee* stating that the GF FX Ultras will be selling for $640US. (not "someone" as you so incorrectly put it.)

I also see Best Buy's preorder page where there is no clockspeed listed (note that you cannot order anything from the BFG pages direct.) Does your great insight inform you on why Best Buys sees fit to list all of the product's specifications except clockspeed on its GF FX preorder page?

(Hopefully, few will be dumb enough to order blind like that anyway, so this is kind of a moot point.)

Oddly enough, we get a repeat of sorts for the PNY product. On the PNY pages the product is specified as 500MHz; however, on the CompUSA pre-order page the gpu MHz, just as in the Best Buy pages, remains curiously missing--it's just not there--although all of the other specifications are.

Look, you may not understand this, but I am trying to sort this out--and as far as I'm concerned it is no coincidence that the pre-order pages for both Best Buy and CompUSA for the PNY version *do not list* the gpu clockspeed, but list everything else. Would you be dumb enough to preorder from such a page--without knowing the clockspeed of the gpu? You *think* it's 500MHz based on the company web pages--but yet this information is not present on the pre-order pages. That's a fact that I did not invent.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

You're really gonna make me insane, Walt. Stop making me insist on how us Europeans are getting ripped off!

That $640 is the price for EUROPE. It's just there for reference, so you Americans can see how we're getting screwed.
We europeans get a LOT of taxes you don't get. Such as a 21% VAT tax. There's also the importation costs.

When YOU Americans get a GPU at $399, we easily get it at around 550 Euros or more.
Radeon 9700 Pros in Europe are still at around 500 Euros ( between 470 and 500 Euros here in Belgium )
And it's been available for a LONG time, it was even more at launch.

What?!?!? Because you don't know from where to buy, I got my Herccules 9700 Pro in October for 360€ !!

PS; In Luxemburg.

 

[WaltC]

Well, it seems you have no clue of what is happening in Europe

When we buy something it's between 33% and 50% more expensive that in the USA. Makes at least 10% more for transport, resellers, etc. and +20% for VAT. In Europe it's 499€ without VAT so 599€ including VAT

Well, my heart goes out to you... But the thing I do have a clue about is the fact that the Best Buy's preorder page for this product at $399, and the CompUSA preorder page for the PNY product at $399, *do not state* a MHz speed for the GPU--although every other specification is covered. (I looked at the Best Buy page today and the CompUSA page yesterday.)

My actual intent with this thread was to investigate the possibility of the current pre-orders at $399 actually pertaining to a 400MHz GF FX product which--according to folks like Uttar--has been announced by Brian Burke and therefore I can take it to the bank that there will indeed be a 400MHz version of the GF FX.

So, I'm going to take it that not a single soul involved in this thread thinks the $399 price tag applies to anything except a 500MHz Ultra version of the product. It seems I have a consensus, which is what I asked for. Thanks to all who responded.

 

[Evildeus]

Well simply look at this...
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=PNY&searchdepa=0&page=2

It's the ultra for 399$

Memory Bandwidth (GB/sec): 16
or the link on the product: http://www.pny.com/home/products/Vcard_fx.cfm

So... you are wrong

 

[Arun]

What?!?!? Because you don't know from where to buy, I got my Herccules 9700 Pro in October for 360€ !!

PS; In Luxemburg.

Belgium - general goods/services - V.A.T. = 21 %

Luxembourg - general goods/services - V.A.T. = 15 % and for alcoholic, wines and tobacco = 12 %

That already explains much. And many other taxes are also much lower in Luxemburg than in Belgium.

Of course, I could find a Radeon 9700 Pro for about 425€ if I searched real good ( I can actually find them at 450€ quite in a few stores ).
But in 95% shops, it's still at around 485€
I'd *love* to know a shop where you could get a Radeon 9700 Pro for 360€, however But I doubt such a place exists in Belgium ( or rather, around Brussels: I refuse to do 100km to buy a GPU. Finding a cheap online vendor isn't so easy around here, IMO )


Uttar

 

[Crusher]

No, he's right, you're going to be paying $640 for a 500 Mhz GeForce FX card. They'll charge your credit card $399 for the pre-order, then they'll send the delivery person to your house with a gun and force you to write them a check for the other $241. They do it that way because it's much easier than just expecting consumers to comprehend the possibility of charging different prices on different continents.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Wow I thought Canadian delivery guys were tough.

 

[WaltC]

Well simply look at this...
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?DEPA=&submit=Go&description=PNY&searchdepa=0&page=2

It's the ultra for 399$

Memory Bandwidth (GB/sec): 16
or the link on the product: http://www.pny.com/home/products/Vcard_fx.cfm

So... you are wrong

....About what?..... As I said, I asked for a consensus, and no one thinks the $399 pre-order prices pertain to anything but the 500MHz version of the GF FX.

I don't see a clockspeed on the New Egg page, either. But of course it is on the PNY company page just as it is on the BFG company page, but now that makes three pre-order pages on which the gpu clockspeed is not in evidence. I also wonder what New Egg means by "OEM" in this case, as typically it means something in relation to the other products they sell that I can't see would apply here, as the GF FX is a brand new product--but that doesn't mean OEM versions couldn't be made and sold, of course.

(I know what you'll say about fill rate quotes and so on being indirect evidence of the clockspeed--but I still find it odd that this info is missing only on the pre-order specification pages for the product that have been published so far.)

And, for everyone else who responded--thank you, again. As most of you know I will often pursue an argument around Perdition's moons and back, so if I stepped on any toes it wasn't out of anything except love of a decent debate... I will actually state that after reading your comments I think it is most likely that the $399 price does indeed apply to the 500MHz version of the product--at least I'm 95% persuaded of that now. Whether the absence of the clockspeed on these pre-order sites is material does remain to be seen, however. I don't think it should be dismissed or over looked as it *may* mean something fundamental. And I do really think that probably the European prices reflect a general overall higher price for these things there than in the states--or maybe as DoomTrooper suggests these prices pertain to a 256-mb version of the product. Anyway, I'm sure we are all interested in what will actually materialize in the next few days and that it will give us all something more to chew on, regardless of what it is! It's so *nice* to have something of merit to discuss about 3D technology again--what a boring world it would be if a single company dominated the market.

 

[Crusher]

Does your great insight inform you on why Best Buys sees fit to list all of the product's specifications except clockspeed on its GF FX preorder page?

Nope, I don't know why they don't list the clock speeds on their pre-order pages, anymore than I know why ATI doesn't list the clock speeds of the 9700 Pro that you can order directly from their website. But I'm pretty sure that if you order one, you'll be getting it at 325 Mhz core, 310 MHz memory, just like everyone else did. I'm also pretty sure that if you pre-order the BFG Technologies Asylum GeForce FX 5800 Ultra from either Best Buy or CompUSA, you'll be getting the same BFG Technologies Asylum GeForce FX 5800 Ultra product listed on BFG Technologies' website, which they advertise runs at 500 MHz core, 500 MHz memory.

I don't think anyone would be stupid to pre-order the BFG card from Best Buy because of the clock speeds. I think they'd be stupid to pre-order it because they'd be paying retail price without any sale offers, and because we haven't seen a single in-depth review of any product using the GeForce FX chip yet.

 

[KimB]

I doubt the volumes will be high enough for any major sale offers very soon...

 

[Crusher]

Yeah, but you're almost guaranteed to find them a few bucks cheaper online after it's released. Below retail prices are the only way some people can make their companies more attractive to consumers. Of course, ordering from some of the companies listed on pricewatch can be even more of a gamble than pre-ordering it before seeing reviews