A human shield changes his mind

[Nathan]

Sebastion, of course there are political agendas behind pacifism. But I think they are small in comparison with the political agendas behind war, so your argument seems like a cheap shot to me.

I consider an anti-war protest with 100 000 participants, as there was in London, quite an effective statement. It certainly is not doing nothing.

Islam is not a cruel religion and cannot be considered worse than Christianity. Please do not confuse Islamic fundamentalist groups with Islam in general. I suggest reading "The battle for God : fundamentalism in Judaism, Christianity and Islam" by Karen Armstrong. I thought it gave a very impartial account of Islam, Christianity and Judaism. I read it after 9/11 because I wanted too know why people would do such a terrible thing. Now that I have a better understanding of the situation, I can't bring myself to feel hatred towards Al Qaeda.

In a nutshell, I think pacifism is simply being willing to see both sides of the argument. Calling pacifists pathetic because they don't agree with your point of view only serves to show how reasonable pacifism is in the face of war. It is far easier to resort to agression and violence than it is to understand your opponent.

 

[kyleb]

kyleb wrote:

lol Silent_One, you just don't give any credit to the ones that are anything but rosy eh?

Why don't you say that about pascal?

why should i say that about pascal? where was giveing credit to only the rosy viewpoints?

 

[chavvdarrr]

U238

chavvdarrr wrote:

Still you did not answer the question: Would like to rise children in such region?

I'm not adding all the quote's cause there's no need for it.

yuet what annoys is that you quote a MILITARY man who answered questions if there is danger...
OF COURSE HE'LL say there is no danger. Dioxin was considered "not dangerous during Vietnam war. How many years passed before realizing the real "power" in it? How many war-enjoyers have SEEN what "agent orange" makes to human genome?
Now military man claims that U238 is not dangerous. LOL.
Still a question:
Would he go & live with his children in such region?
I claim that U238 is not safe and the result is well-measurable increase in cancer-like diseases, especially in small children groups. And what's worst - the peak of it will be no less than 15-20 years after the pollution.
I took my exams on nuclear physics in 91-92, and the professor was very concrete on damages made to environment from Chernobil's disaster and any other radioactive materials. Especially to why the real damage is much bigger - because its non-direct, with damage-peak well ahead in the years.
If still someone thinks that to inhale uranium is OK - he can go to work in uranium mine.

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." J. V. Dzhugashvili

 

[epicstruggle]

why dont you protest against saddam placing his military assets in civilian population. If he did not do that, the Coalition would have no need to use depleted uranium where it MIGHT cause injuries to children. This just is another reason why saddam has to go, he has no regards to any civilian casualties. I wish you people would fight for the people of Iraq and not for the regime.

later,

 

[arjan de lumens]

IIRC, most of the radioactive fallout from the Chernobyl disaster was Cesium-134, which is about 2 billion times more radioactive than depleted uranium...

 

[Crusher]

I hear lead is poisonous if it's ingested, too. Maybe we should be using rubber bullets, just in case a kid picks one up and eats it...

 

[epicstruggle]

I hear lead is poisonous if it's ingested, too. Maybe we should be using rubber bullets, just in case a kid picks one up and eats it...

 

[Silent_One]

If still someone thinks that to inhale uranium is OK - he can go to work in uranium mine.

Don't be ridiculous, nobody said that inhaling uranium is OK. However, there is a danger working in uranium mines because of Radon gas.

yuet what annoys is that you quote a MILITARY man who answered questions if there is danger...
OF COURSE HE'LL say there is no danger.

And what annoys me is when people post information based on Iraqi MILITARY information.

O.K. - here's from non military people:http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/gezondheidsraad-du-1.html EXECUTIVE SUMMARY from the Dutch Health Council

When assessing the health effects of exposure to natural uranium and DU, it is necessary to consider both the radioactivity of the material and its chemical toxic effect. Based on existing knowledge of the radiological properties of uranium, it would appear that radioactive contamination of the lungs is the principal health effect to be considered in connection with exposure to slightly soluble uranium compounds in the atmosphere. In this context should be mentioned that the dose arising from exposure to DU is much smaller than from exposure to natural uranium per unit of mass. For soluble compounds, the chemical toxic effect in the kidneys is the primary consideration. The toxicological effects are to some extent concordant with those of other heavy metals.
A substantial amount of work has been done with uranium since the mid twentieth century. Research involving large groups of workers in the uranium industry has produced valuable data about the risks of exposure to uranium, but it also displays the frequently unavoidable shortcomings: namely, substandard information about the actual exposure of the workers, substandard or non-existent information on exposure to other possibly harmful agents and unsatisfactory data on disruptive variables such as smoking habits.
The epidemiological research has not produced any clear evidence that exposure to uranium leads to health impairment. According to the literature, the additional cases of lung cancer among workers in uranium mines are attributable to the inhalation of the radioactive decay products of radon, which is found in elevated concentrations in and around mines. Military personnel who took part in the Gulf War exhibit more health complaints than others do. The extensive investigations conducted among these veterans have produced no evidence that exposure to DU is a causative factor in these complaints

Kyleb wrote:

why should i say that about pascal? where was giveing credit to only the rosy viewpoints?

Do I have to spell it out for you??? Of course I quoted the US Military. Of course I offer the "rosy viewpoint". After all, as I said to chavvdarrr above, "what annoys me is when people post information based on Iraqi MILITARY information." But do you say anything against people who post what the Iraqi Military says???, do you ever question where that information comes from?? NO. You just seem to swallow what others say without question. There are two sides to question of DU health hazards. BOTH should be looked at and questioned. Be carefull where you get the information from. Avoid newspaper articles (the linked site is full of them). As I said "if you noticed where I got the information from, that he's refering to in his last post, that there are many links with differing positions."

 

[chavvdarrr]

why dont you protest against saddam placing his military assets in civilian population. If he did not do that, the Coalition would have no need to use depleted uranium where it MIGHT cause injuries to children. This just is another reason why saddam has to go, he has no regards to any civilian casualties.

?h, if only he would be so kind to take down his pants , then to bend down, holding vaseline (made from J&J ! ) .......
Besides, nobody forced Your so called coalition (sorry, it is coalition after all - there are 2 countries so it IS), to go in Iraq.

How much $$$ will "burn" during the war if it goes for say 2 months? 70 mlrd ? (billions?)
How many will be killed? At least 1500 Iraqi people were already "liberated". Is someone aware how many people and children die every year just because they have nothing to eat or can't pay for simple medical goods? And how many could live if these 70 000 000 000 $ were spent for medicine?
Oh, sorry, now you'll say I'm propagandizing communism, leftism, hippism,xxxxism . After all who cares if someone is dying because of poverty, if he don't have oil-wells.

"A single death is a tragedy, a million deaths is a statistic." J. V. Dzhugashvili

Just a thought - anyone aware who I quoted above? Pardon me, if it looks stupid asking such question.

 

[chavvdarrr]

Repeate: Would he go & live with his children in such re

Don't be ridiculous, nobody said that inhaling uranium is OK. However, there is a danger working in uranium mines because of Radon gas.

(Y)
I like arguing with people like you.
But do you insist that Radon is the only dangerous material in such mines? See the topic on this post....

And what annoys me is when people post information based on Iraqi MILITARY information.
O.K. - here's from non military people:http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/gezondheidsraad-du-1.html EXECUTIVE SUMMARY from the Dutch Health Council

The extensive investigations conducted among these veterans have produced no evidence that exposure to DU is a causative factor in these complaints

But it produced no evidence that DU is not a factor.

But do you say anything against people who post what the Iraqi Military says???, do you ever question where that information comes from?? NO. You just seem to swallow what others say without question. There are two sides to question of DU health hazards. BOTH should be looked at and questioned. Be carefull where you get the information from. Avoid newspaper articles (the linked site is full of them). As I said "if you noticed where I got the information from, that he's refering to in his last post, that there are many links with differing positions."

Mmmmm, sorry, but where/who posted view of Iraqi military ?! AFAIK pascal posted what Iraqi scientists think of DU ?
I was unaware of his sources. And reason behind my arguments could not be found in Internet - I never searched for such info.

 

[epicstruggle]

chavvdarrr, are you saying its ok to place your military equipment near hospitals, housing, apartments, mosques during a time of war. Seems kinda ridiculous. But anyways the anti war is really ridiculous, so I shouldnt expect to much from it. The Coalition is strong, and has many more countries than you think. Not everyone needs to send their armies to help, it already has plenty. Altough maybe our troops would have enjoyed seeing a french division dropping the weapons and surrendering to the Iraqi.

later,

 

[pax]

nathan, let me tell you that i admire people who are pacifists, one of my greatest heroes is Ghandi. Unfortunatly we no longer live in a world where you can be a pacifist.

I dont know if you ever watched the movie Starship Troopers. In it the human race is battling space aliens bugs that are trying to annahialate all living things on earth. In one scene they show the aftermath of a group of pacifists who are trying to live in peace with the bugs. Let me just say that they were slaughtered. What im saying is that, whats the point of being a pacifist when there are weapons that can completly destroy a cities population in a matter of moments(seconds to days). What will your pacifism get you then.

Im sorry to have to say that the pacifists in Iraq who disaggred with Saddam are probably dead, tortured, raped, or shredded. Thats what pacifism in Iraq gets you. Ill support your right to do next to nothing, but dont hold us back when the rest of us decide to do something about the injustices in the world.

Dont get me started on all the problems with the UN.

later,

Just wanna to add a little footnote here that the movie isnt about pacifism vs military activism... its about a future where mankind is ruled by a faschistic regime and militarism has run rampant... Maybe you should read the book if you liked the movie so much. Kickass action flick for that side of things tho I have it in my dvd collection hhe

 

[chavvdarrr]

chavvdarrr, are you saying its ok to place your military equipment near hospitals, housing, apartments, mosques during a time of war. Seems kinda ridiculous. But anyways the anti war is really ridiculous, so I shouldnt expect to much from it.

no. But usually people tend to believe that "winners write the history". That's what USA believe right now.
There is no fair war. Usually one either fights as furiously as he can or stops fighting. Contrary question:
Are you saying its NOT ok to use aviation, rockets, cassette bombs which the other side does not have in same quantity?!
What will be your reaction if someone comes to your home and tries to kill you? Just imagine such situation, are you going to fight him FAIR ?
Remember David won the field against Goliath with "cheat".
But really people who believe killing is best practice are so ridiculous, so I shouldnt expect to much from it.

The Coalition is strong, and has many more countries than you think. Not everyone needs to send their armies to help, it already has plenty. Altough maybe our troops would have enjoyed seeing a french division dropping the weapons and surrendering to the Iraqi

LOL. The Coalition .
Let me clear your eyes, as I'm citizen of country which is in that s.c. coalition. My country is in it because:
1. Politics in rule believe we always should be with the stronger boy.
2. They were payed - officially. All expenses for our "support" will be paid by USA. By you. And claim was made that USA will pay Iraqi's debt (1.5 mlrd I think)

You really need such "support" ?

 

[Silent_One]

And what annoys me is when people post information based on Iraqi MILITARY information.
O.K. - here's from non military people:http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/gezondheidsraad-du-1.html EXECUTIVE SUMMARY from the Dutch Health Council

The extensive investigations conducted among these veterans have produced no evidence that exposure to DU is a causative factor in these complaints

But it produced no evidence that DU is not a factor.

Boy, talk about misreading quotes! It says that extensive investigations found no evidence that DU was a causative factor in those complaints. Repete - No evidence that DU was a factor, not no evidence DU was not a factor. Using your logic there are potentially many causes that can't be ruled out simply because no evidence to indicate that their a problem!!! Thats crazy.

 

[chavvdarrr]

Boy, talk about misreading quotes! It says that extensive investigations found no evidence that DU was a causative factor in those complaints. Repete - No evidence that DU was a factor, not no evidence DU was not a factor. Using your logic there are potentially many causes that can't be ruled out simply because no evidence to indicate that their a problem!!! Thats crazy.

Sorry, looks like my english is not good enough to construct such sentencies. Still these are my thoughts. Perhaps you should tell me how it should be written?
Edit: I simply overreacted on 'boy'. sorry

 

[Silent_One]

Sorry if you misinterpreted my slang when I said "Boy, talk about misreading quotes!" No insult to you was meant with the use of "Boy".

 

[epicstruggle]

Just wanna to add a little footnote here that the movie isnt about pacifism vs military activism... its about a future where mankind is ruled by a faschistic regime and militarism has run rampant... Maybe you should read the book if you liked the movie so much. Kickass action flick for that side of things tho I have it in my dvd collection hhe

Not sure if you read my comment there pax. i know we have people who just glance at a post and attack, attack, attack. Not sure if your one of them. What i said was that in one scene, the movie shows that pacifism did not work against the bugs. Which was the point I was making in the post, that pacifism does not work against a regime that is evil (or has no conscience).

BTW the movie is not about a faciest military regime, thats the backdrop (although i would disagree that thats the type of government there). The movie is about the battle between humans versus the bugs. I have not read the book, and so cant comment on its content. Which is why I comment on the movie. I did like the movie, and also liked the cartoon series. I should pick up the book, hope its as good.

later,

 

[Barnabas]

Just a thought - anyone aware who I quoted above? Pardon me, if it looks stupid asking such question.

Stalin.

 

[epicstruggle]

Boy, talk about misreading quotes! It says that extensive investigations found no evidence that DU was a causative factor in those complaints. Repete - No evidence that DU was a factor, not no evidence DU was not a factor. Using your logic there are potentially many causes that can't be ruled out simply because no evidence to indicate that their a problem!!! Thats crazy.

Sorry, looks like my english is not good enough to construct such sentencies. Still these are my thoughts. Perhaps you should tell me how it should be written, boy ?

Chavvdarrr, the way Silent_One used the term boy, did not mean anything. It was not meant in offence, implied or otherwise. Its an expression like "boy, its hot in here", where boy isnt refering to a person but just an expression. I see SO apologized if you took it the wrong way, but it was not meant as an insult.

later,

 

[Nagorak]

I wish we could ship all the people who are protesting agains the war to iraq. so they can see first hand what type of life they want the iraqis to continue to live in. If anyone finds out exactly when the footage will be shown on abc please post here. thanks

later,

I wish we could ship all the gung-ho people out onto the front lines, since they want to fight so badly.

Yeah, the people who are protesting this removal of Sadam are real fools for the most part.

People aren't protesting the removal of Saddam. Stop purposely misunderstanding what people are saying.

By the way, you care about the Iraqis so much, why aren't you out there fighting? Talk is cheap.