360 eDRAM Utilization - 2010 Edition

[Arwin]

There are a tonne of multi-platform titles that have more or better quality AA on 360. I am surprised this is even being discussed.

 

[Rangers]

Also I don't think WAW or MW2 have full res buffer on any platform.

Check the pics I linked or other WaW fire pics at Eurogamers comparison. There's clearly something going on there.

I seriously doubt it. AB is a visually very simple game, if it lacks AA on PS3 I would expect it to be entirely due to lack of development time, and/or effort.

But 360 had it, so...given whatever time/effort they had, they were able to put it on 360 but not PS3, due to EDRAM.

 

[Billy Idol]

guys...my orignal question was not:

effect of EDRAM on multiplatform games in the sense of xbox360 versus PS3 (because this automatically results in a closed thread !!)

my question was:

efffect of EDRAM on exclusive Xbox360 titles compared to multiplat Xbox360 titles (because in MP titles, EDRAM is not fully used due to PS3 parity)

so what are exclusive devs using EDRAM for which MP devs don't do because they know that it would not translate well to PS3 (as often "implied" by joker and assen).

I am asking this, because we all know how the typical MP comparison turns out: Xbox360 has better transparancies+better AA...due to EDRAM!!

I always thought that AA+transparancies are the only thing EDRAM is good for, but some say eDRAM can do more but isn't being used fully in MP games.

I typically play all the Xbox360 exclusive titles and I really would love to hear what else these games are using EDRAM for!!

I hope joker or assen or other devs can bring some light to this, as they are basically the guys who often stated this...sadly, without providing more specific informations!

 

[nightshade]

Check the pics I linked or other WaW fire pics at Eurogamers comparison. There's clearly something going on there.

What I meant to say is that 360 version of WAW did had higher reso alpha buffer than PS3 ver. but that doesn't necessarily means 360 ver had full res buffer. Its probably half res on 360 vs quarter on PS3. Also, MW2 used identical buffer across both consoles, which was probably a half res buffer again.

 

[Shifty Geezer]

effect of EDRAM on multiplatform games in the sense of xbox360 versus PS3 (because this automatically results in a closed thread !!)

That's not strictly true. If you search for threads with titles including 'eDRAM' in them, you'll see a few threads discussing the hardware design choices. There's nothing wrong with a, "what are the advantages of eDRAM?" thread that considers the pros and cons of dedicating some silicon from functional units over to local storage. What gets the threads closed are morons who can't debate rationally and can't stay on topic, killing the thread. The mods then just bury it, but all execution is achieved by those who partake.

I'll just reinforce your question here which some haven't seemed to follow. The topic of this thread, at least why it was started, is...

"What are the advantages of Xenos and its eDRAM that platform exclusive titles can use which aren't getting used in multiplatform titles?"

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Here's a good interview:
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-tech-interview-trials-hd

Also note how most X360 exclusive titles aren't doing anything like this... Devs either concentrate on something else (Bungie), use a mostly multiplatform engine (Epic), or don't have the budget (almost everyone else).
Or there's Forza, what kind of AA is there on top of 60fps and HDR, 2x or 4x? Then there's Fable which is IMHO let down by the less inspired artwork...

 

[Ruskie]

It seems like likes of Capcom use eDRAM extensive(i think they even mentioned that) and it shows while even alot of MS 1st party developers dont really use it that way.Didnt someone mention that UE3 is not really friendly with eDRAM and tiling and still people tend to say that Epic does the best job with 360.

 

[Arnold Beckenbauer]

ya what I meant, FP16 on PS3 and lindbergh, so those version of the games has no AA at all. Im pretty sure the arcade version I saw of HOTD4, VF5 never have any MSAA. And PS3 version of those games being a direct port.

FP16 HDRR needs more VRAM and more bandwith. So I don't think there are games which use FP16 HDRR (FP16 for all four channels).

 

[Gitaroo]

FP16 HDRR needs more VRAM and more bandwith. So I don't think there are games which use FP16 HDRR (FP16 for all four channels).

think they do

http://game.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/20061025/3dvf5.htm"

http://forum.beyond3d.com/showthread.php?t=35008

atleast VF5 does. So FP16 HDR for arcade (PS3 almost direct port) and probably FP10 HDR + MSAA for 360. I'm almost positive that AF is the same. So just a limitation of G6/7 core I guess?

 

[matthias]

Also note how most X360 exclusive titles aren't doing anything like this... Devs either concentrate on something else (Bungie), use a mostly multiplatform engine (Epic), or don't have the budget (almost everyone else).
Or there's Forza, what kind of AA is there on top of 60fps and HDR, 2x or 4x? Then there's Fable which is IMHO let down by the less inspired artwork...

Viva Pinata is 2xaa and iirc uses the tesselator for terrain details. Banjo and Dead or Alive 4 are also 2xaa. I can't remember if Kameo had any AA.

 

[Billy Idol]

or don't have the budget (almost everyone else).

Hm this is what I thought as well sometimes. But this would imply that it is not effortless to get the most out of EDRAM (comparable to getting the most out of CELL!?)

And this is exactly why I am curious about the other argumentation line, where people here state that EDRAM potential is not used in MP games...due to sacred PS3 parity
- in my world, this contradicts the argumentation line which you mentioned that exclusive devs don't use full potential of EDRAM due to time, money or other tech focus, right, as I don't suppose that MP devs have unlimited time and money or a special Xbox360 EDRAM tech focus!?

If we all think about this two argumentations a little bit more, everyone should see that...it does not compute, at least not with boolean type logic ;-)

Maybe the current situation could point us to the conclusion that the applicability of EDRAM is indeed rather "limited" for the typical game dev situation
(note: limited not in a negative way, as AA and effects/transparancies is IMO of fundamental importance, but not so overly positive as often hinted either)

 

[Laa-Yosh]

Refer to that often mentioned Corinne Yu interview somewhere here where she expresses her disappointment over the lack of developers really pushing the X360.

I personally think that you're oversimplify the issue; the architecture is 5 years old and is pushed to do tricky things no hardware engineer has ever thought of back in 2003-2004. Complex lighting and shadowing solutions, heavy use of multiple render targets, various approaches to HDR and so on...

If games were still doing just the simple, straightforward stuff that the XGPU has been designed for, I'm sure that even 4xAA wouldn't be such a big problem. But this is not the case and thus it takes above average effort.
So some devs decide it's not worth the effort, seeing how the general audience tolerates even subHD resolutions; and some can't even decide because of their constrained budget. Others do push the hardware but sometimes their games aren't getting enough press.
I'm sure there's a plethora of PS3 games, even exclusives, that could do better as well. It's just that there are more 1st party titles doing a lot of high-tech wizardry that take attention away from these games.

So it is certainly possible to utilize the EDRAM for a bunch of things, including MSAA but other tricks too. What we haven't seen yet is a high profile 1st party MS game doing it. Maybe the upcoming Halo game(s) from 343 Industries will do so.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

Hm this is what I thought as well sometimes. But this would imply that it is not effortless to get the most out of EDRAM (comparable to getting the most out of CELL!?)

I'd say it's probably easier to make the most out of the EDRAM versus the Cell, but you'll see more effort put into getting the most out of the Cell because you have no choice. Unless you want your game to run like dogsnot, you HAVE to try to get good use of the Cell's SPUs.

For the X360, you could probably still make good looking, fast playing games by ignoring the EDRAM, which isn't going ot happen on the PS3.

Additionally you have a company that has a vested interest in making sure that Cell is well promoted that also owns a lot of developement studios with which it can push it's vested interest (cell). I'd imagine those devs get a lot more funding for SPU experimentation than any exclusive dev on X360 will to just experiement with the EDRAM.

That said, EDRAM is being used, and not always just for AA. It's just rare to see anyone asking or reporting on how it's being used. And finally it'll never be used quite as extensively as SPU's not only because there's only 1 EDRAM module, but there isn't a requirement to use it well in order to make a good looking and good performing game.

Regards,
SB

 

[NRP]

This thread is wierd. Devs have to use the EDRAM. You can't not use it, as far as I know. I don't think you can bypass the EDRAM.

 

[Silent_Buddha]

This thread is wierd. Devs have to use the EDRAM. You can't not use it, as far as I know. I don't think you can bypass the EDRAM.

I wasn't clear. I wasn't saying you CAN ignore, but if it could be ignored, you'd still be able to make fast and good looking games. It isn't absolutely essential in order to produce good looking and fast playing games as is the SPU's in the Cell. On the PS3, basically if you can't make at least decent use of the SPU's to assist rendering you're not going to get very far.

But yes, it is a bit weird of a weird thread, as the EDRAM module and the SPU's on PS3 aren't directly comparable.

Regards,
SB

 

[Arwin]

Framebuffer 2D effects like smoke are almost always higher quality on 360. They are almost always significantly downscaled on PS3. This is a clear advantage of EDRAM that is used and visible in very many games and almost always comes up in multi-platform comparisons. I think two great games that illustrate the big differences in relative strength of the two consoles are Geometry Wars and Super Stardust HD.

 

[Billy Idol]

No one stated that you either can use EDRAM or you can completely ignore it?!?!?
Every dev has to use it!

The question is if you are doing "only" AA+transparencies or if you are using EDRAM for stuff it was not originally intended for like mentioned in the DF Sebbi interview, with Trials HD seems to be one of the rare exclusive games on Xbox360 using fancy EDRAM stuff.

 

[ihamoitc2005]

No one stated that you either can use EDRAM or you can completely ignore it?!?!?
Every dev has to use it!

The question is if you are doing "only" AA+transparencies or if you are using EDRAM for stuff it was not originally intended for like mentioned in the DF Sebbi interview, with Trials HD seems to be one of the rare exclusive games on Xbox360 using fancy EDRAM stuff.

I remember that before they said they could do post-process inside EDRAM itself.

If this is true, maybe this is what they mean by more EDRAM utilization.

 

[jlippo]

I remember that before they said they could do post-process inside EDRAM itself.

If this is true, maybe this is what they mean by more EDRAM utilization.

One can only write into EDRAM, not read from it.
This means that most post-processing techniques are done from main memory as texture reads and written into a new buffer within EDRAM. (lots of reads vs single write)

 

[ihamoitc2005]

Yes but,

One can only write into EDRAM, not read from it.
This means that most post-processing techniques are done from main memory as texture reads and written into a new buffer within EDRAM. (lots of reads vs single write)

maybe I misremember, I ask this because I remember (sort of) reading/hearing that EDRAM daughter die has programmable processing also.

Maybe this was just crazy fan-boy talk. I don't know. At that time a lot of people saying a lot of crazy things. I even remember many people say Cell is unusable for physics but others also say it is unusable for graphics. So maybe it is one of those things that people just say for being fanboys. Who knows.