Legality of Emus on Consoles *feather split*

Cyan said:
Good luck with your emulator. Wish I could try it on PC at least from the time being. Do you have a homepage or a site where to download it? From my experience with Windows Phone -which alas is going to be killed, it seems- the emulators use your SD card to look for the roms, but also you can use your onedrive account and upload then download -or just load- the roms from there and play them. Hopefully both methods should work on the X1 with uwp.
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There's no PC version (aside from the Linux one running on my deskop that's not publicly available) and if there ever is it's not very likely it'd be freely available for download.

HMBR said:
considering all the emulators at google play store I think no one have a good case against emulators, it should be the same with the xbox apps, hopefully.
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They'd be legally able to do it, but unfortunately a lot of places ban emulators anyway. Like Apple's app store and Amazon's. MS allows them on Windows Store, but it's possible they'll feel differently about allowing them on a console.
 
Exophase said:
They'd be legally able to do it, but unfortunately a lot of places ban emulators anyway. Like Apple's app store and Amazon's. MS allows them on Windows Store, but it's possible they'll feel differently about allowing them on a console.
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But the impression I've always got is they ban emulation so that lazy devs™ don't just port old software without refactoring it to the target platform. I never felt like it was about the illegality of running old game roms ore something, but it could be part of the reason too anyways...
 
milk said:
But the impression I've always got is they ban emulation so that lazy devs™ don't just port old software without refactoring it to the target platform. I never felt like it was about the illegality of running old game roms ore something, but it could be part of the reason too anyways...
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I don't think so. When I say they ban emulators I mean ones that let the users supply their own ROMs, not apps that use emulation behind the scenes to provide access only to the games in a provided collection.

For example, there was a C64 emulator on Apple's app store that only played bundled games that the developer had obtained licensing rights to. It was removed a few times but ultimately allowed to stay. Interestingly, the final issue that it had to remove was access to a BASIC interpreter. Here's another example that's been on the app store for years:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ataris-greatest-hits/id422966028?mt=8

(I don't think there's any question that emulation is used)

I think what Apple doesn't want is apps that allow users to basically load/run third party programs that eschew Apple's approval process. Not pissing off the companies like Nintendo and Sony who hate emulators is a bonus. It's not really about legality.
 
Exophase said:
I don't think so. When I say they ban emulators I mean ones that let the users supply their own ROMs, not apps that use emulation behind the scenes to provide access only to the games in a provided collection.

For example, there was a C64 emulator on Apple's app store that only played bundled games that the developer had obtained licensing rights to. It was removed a few times but ultimately allowed to stay. Interestingly, the final issue that it had to remove was access to a BASIC interpreter. Here's another example that's been on the app store for years:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ataris-greatest-hits/id422966028?mt=8

(I don't think there's any question that emulation is used)

I think what Apple doesn't want is apps that allow users to basically load/run third party programs that eschew Apple's approval process. Not pissing off the companies like Nintendo and Sony who hate emulators is a bonus. It's not really about legality.
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too special for my taste...

Exophase said:
There's no PC version (aside from the Linux one running on my deskop that's not publicly available) and if there ever is it's not very likely it'd be freely available for download.



They'd be legally able to do it, but unfortunately a lot of places ban emulators anyway. Like Apple's app store and Amazon's. MS allows them on Windows Store, but it's possible they'll feel differently about allowing them on a console.
Click to expand...
if there was a PC version, at least a demo I would certainly try it. I use Windows 10 mainly, although I also have several Linux distributions, although the one I use is Ubuntu -normal or server edition- (for servers Linux is amazing, for daily use I prefer Windows any time of the day, although I am used to both (well, Linux, somehow...-. Why not a PC version?
 
Cyan said:
if there was a PC version, at least a demo I would certainly try it. I use Windows 10 mainly, although I also have several Linux distributions, although the one I use is Ubuntu -normal or server edition- (for servers Linux is amazing, for daily use I prefer Windows any time of the day, although I am used to both (well, Linux, somehow...-. Why not a PC version?
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I developed the emulator for lower end mobile platforms in mind. This is because the only option for porting, DeSmuME, wasn't really fast enough to run well across a wide range of mobile hardware, especially at the time. So there's a much greater focus on performance.

For most PC desktop/laptop users today, unless you're running on an Atom, DeSmuME is generally fast enough. It's free, open source, has good compatibility and accuracy and a lot of features. Alternatively there's also No$GBA. So I think there's just less reason and demand to release a PC port, but if we're going to offer it for UWP anyway (for phones, tablets, low-end convertibles, XB1 possibly) there's no real good reason other than philosophical or political ones to not make it available for desktop.

When I say it wouldn't be freely available, I mean we'd probably charge like we are on Android. I don't really want to release it for free on a really major platform if I think it'll result in taking a lot of sales away from the Android version, although that could change in the future.
 
Exophase said:
I think what Apple doesn't want is apps that allow users to basically load/run third party programs that eschew Apple's approval process.
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Pretty much. The rule is no non-native code and I always assumed the rule existed because Apple can't review the code that might be run on the user's device at the time the app is submitted. I doubt Apple cares two figs about emulation but emulators get sucked into this global rule. They have revisited this rule once or twice though so maybe in future. I can't imagine a phone is a good device on which to play almost anything emulated.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
That's from Atari! If Nintendo release a Nintendo emulator on Windows or wherever, of course it'll be allowed. ;)
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You may have missed the context of that reference. I'm demonstrating that Apple doesn't have a policy in place out of interest in preventing lazy re-releases.

On the other hand, I doubt Nintendo would be allowed to release an NES emulator that played whatever ROMs the user wanted on the app store.
 
Oh, indeed. Apple doesn't care what's sold as long as they get a cut. Who would?! If Nintendo provided an emulator and in-app ROMs, I'm sure Apple would be okay. You wouldn't have any other way to get ROMs onto an emulator anyhow as I understand it. iOS is very closed.
 
Shifty Geezer said:
Oh, indeed. Apple doesn't care what's sold as long as they get a cut. Who would?! If Nintendo provided an emulator and in-app ROMs, I'm sure Apple would be okay. You wouldn't have any other way to get ROMs onto an emulator anyhow as I understand it. iOS is very closed.
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Apple has all sorts of restrictions about what they allow on their app store. It seems pretty evident that they do care about more than getting a cut, and they do actually outright prohibit emulators.

There are standard methods to transfer files to and from iOS devices. If there weren't the numerous authoring apps would be useless.
 
Apple even banned apps made in unreal engine initially because it went against some of their code guidelines, so yeah, they aren't that care free...
 
@Exophase , given the fact that you develop an actual emulator... How is it done? It's something I always found so mysterious. I mean, I admire those people who could achieve programming an emulator. How is it possible? Did Nintendo published all the registers of the original machine and you translated them into the code of your target hardware? How do you translate the original DS operations into x86 or arm code, for instance?

I could go on and on and on about examples of not-so straightforward machines that have their emulator. Heck, even Saturn has an emulator at least, someone told me yesterday..
 
Cyan said:
@Exophase , given the fact that you develop an actual emulator... How is it done? It's something I always found so mysterious. I mean, I admire those people who could achieve programming an emulator. How is it possible? Did Nintendo published all the registers of the original machine and you translated them into the code of your target hardware? How do you translate the original DS operations into x86 or arm code, for instance?

I could go on and on and on about examples of not-so straightforward machines that have their emulator. Heck, even Saturn has an emulator at least, someone told me yesterday..
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Nintendo DS has been reverse engineered/documented by enthusiasts, including a lot of people who did homebrew on the device. The documentation by Martin Korth (No$, who did a DS emulator himself) is sufficient to emulate the system.

An emulator works by loading a game ROM (or CD image or whatever), reading the instructions and the game program, and then either a) examining them on the fly to update the emulated game state or b) converting them to native machine code and executing it. As the emulated instructions are executed it modifies the state of other pieces of emulated machine like graphics and sound hardware. The emulator will then at some periods examine this state and use it to emulate the hardware, by drawing graphics primitives or generating sound waveforms or so on.

Emulators have been written for nearly anything, and in most cases you can find at least some half decent emulator that is open source. There are also many guides and forum threads out there on how to write emulators, particularly for simpler systems like NES and Gameboy. If you know how to program (usually in C/C++ but other languages will suffice) and you have a good grasp on how console hardware works you should be able to pick up how to write an emulator from these sources. Then when you understand everything well enough you can look at the source code of various emulators and see how they work in particular.
 
Silent_Buddha said:
Not just Microsoft, but in that specific case Nvidia would attempt to bury them also. Nvidia is one of the prime reasons that Microsoft doesn't offer BC for original Xbox games. They either pay Nvidia to provide BC on Xbox games or get taken to court.

Regards,
SB
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How is MS allowing an emulator as a third party app on the Xbox any different than than Google allowing the sale of emulators through Google Play?

The emulators themselves are not illegal. I don't think MS feared a nvidia lawsuit but rather they didnt and still don't want to set a precedent of supporting unauthorized wares on their consoles. It only creates animosity between them and their competitors and partners, and opens up the pathway for Sony and Nintendo to offer Xbox emulators on their consoles.
 
dobwal said:
How is MS allowing an emulator as a third party app on the Xbox any different than than Google allowing the sale of emulators through Google Play?

The emulators themselves are not illegal. I don't think MS feared a nvidia lawsuit but rather they didnt and still don't want to set a precedent of supporting unauthorized wares on their consoles. It only creates animosity between competitors and partners, and opens up the pathway for Sony and Nintendo to offer Xbox emulators on their consoles.
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The emulators on Google play store do not use any code or IP from the devices they are emulating. I'm assuming they are all legal clean room projects. And if they aren't they either haven't been reported yet, or they've been deemed to be too small to proceed against with legal action.

Both Sony and Nintendo have gone after emulators in the past where they could prove the emulator used patented IP. For example, if an emulator included the BIOS from a PS1 or PS2.

In the case of Microsoft creating an Xbox emulator it is certainly possible. They've done it in the past to enable Xbox games to run on X360. But that wasn't a clean room design and used IP from the Nvidia graphics stack on Xbox. MS had to pay Nvidia per title for each backwards compatible Xbox title on X360.

It's likely possible for Microsoft to come up with a clean room emulator of Xbox and in Microsoft's case they had better be double and triple sure that it infringes on no Nvidia IP from the Xbox design as they are large enough that Nvidia wouldn't ignore any transgressions.

The cost and time associated with doing it is highly likely to be unprofitable. Especially when you consider the Xbox wasn't exactly really popular even when it was still being sold. Add in the risk of legal action and there isn't a whole lot of incentive for Microsoft to do it.

Emulators for PS3 are likely to run into a similar situation with regards to Nvidia. But in that case, PS3 was popular enough that Sony deemed it worthwhile. Especially as they charge users for emulated games even if they previously owned them. However, homebrew emulators may not fare so kindly if they aren't careful to avoid low level Nvidia IP in addition to any patented IP held by Sony.

BTW - Microsoft have no problems with allowing Emulators in the Windows Store, both for Windows and Windows Phone. I don't see that changing for the Xbox platform.

Regards,
SB
 
image.jpg
 
Win64e10 , Nintendo 64 emulator running on the Xbox One. (only for preview members as of now)

upload_2016-7-29_1-57-47.png

N64 emulator now on ©Xbox One. pic.twitter.com/JViQatAup4
 
NesBox is running on the Xbox One. The creator has sent it for certification. NesBox is an emulator which can run games from the NES, the SNES, the Megadrive, the GBA and the Gameboy Color.

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=es&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=gl&ie=UTF-8&u=http://www.microsoftinsider.es/112412/emulador-nesbox-puede-llegar-pronto-xbox-one/&edit-text=

From the author's twitter account:

https://twitter.com/nesboxcom

UWP version with Xbox support is ready, passing Windows Store certification
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upload_2016-9-9_5-3-5.png

upload_2016-9-9_5-3-40.png
 
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