Legality of Emus on Consoles *feather split*

Discussion in 'Console Industry' started by Cyan, Jul 6, 2016.

  1. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,572
    Likes Received:
    2,292
  2. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,701
    Likes Received:
    11,148
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    I can't imagine Nintendo being happy about that.
     
  3. Globalisateur

    Globalisateur Globby
    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2013
    Messages:
    2,945
    Likes Received:
    1,668
    Location:
    France
    Well if they provided a way to play all their retro games with a unified account and at a decent price, I am sure many wouldn't want to use an emulator. Also you can play non-Nintendo games using emulators.

    That must be hard to copy roms of their games and make them available on their VC, without trophies and such added.

    Well sure they have bigger fish to fry like pay guys to watch all youtube videos and make sure they take all the miserable pennies from the youtube ads streamers who had invested time, energy and hundred of dollars of Nintendo goods and made free and positive advertisement for their games. :roll:
     
    AlBran, Cyan, BRiT and 1 other person like this.
  4. milk

    Veteran Regular

    Joined:
    Jun 6, 2012
    Messages:
    2,986
    Likes Received:
    2,556
    Thank god for nintendo this won't last long. After all, this whole multi-purpose console thing with a robust OS and downloadable apps is a fad. No need to even acknowledge that red ocean.
     
    Billy Idol, AlBran and Gubbi like this.
  5. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,572
    Likes Received:
    2,292
    those emulators work for free but with certain limitations, and I have paid for them. They are legal, and I have my roms on the cloud, so it should be safe. The fact that those emulators are going to work forever in several devices including Scorpio is a known fact, or so they should.

    A cool gif on the new console.

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    #5 Cyan, Jul 6, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2016
  6. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,972
    Likes Received:
    5,794
    Location:
    London, UK
    And no doubt if Nintendo released an OG Xbox emulator for the NX Microsoft will totally be cool with that. You know Microsoft could just release their ancient shit for Nintendo's upcoming console and if they don't, well that's an effective defence right? :runaway:

    Let the emulation games begin!!! :nope:
     
  7. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,701
    Likes Received:
    11,148
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Can you provide confirmation of that?

    http://mobilesyrup.com/2015/03/15/emulate-this-are-game-emulators-legal/
    Also Nintendo's (somewhat hyperbolic) viewpoint: https://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#emulator They note that software copies aren't legal, so even if you ripped your ROMS from hardware and stored them in the cloud, you probably aren't entitled to unless some court has ruled otherwise.

    Part of the USP for Nintendo consoles is to play old IP, sold to you for the fourth time :)p). Being able to play those games on another brand machine is in direct violation of Nintendo's IP and business potential. I don't think they'll let it slide if it becomes a noteworthy feature.

    That said, they've allowed emulators to persist on the likes of Sony's handhelds and Android, so maybe it is legal and all the legal la-de-da in the above Nintendo link is just impotent posturing?

    I definitely agree with DSoup that if a Nintendo or Sony console could play XB games, MS would bury them.
     
    Billy Idol likes this.
  8. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,137
    Likes Received:
    5,074
    Not just Microsoft, but in that specific case Nvidia would attempt to bury them also. Nvidia is one of the prime reasons that Microsoft doesn't offer BC for original Xbox games. They either pay Nvidia to provide BC on Xbox games or get taken to court.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    Shifty Geezer and Cyan like this.
  9. DSoup

    DSoup meh
    Legend Veteran Subscriber

    Joined:
    Nov 23, 2007
    Messages:
    10,972
    Likes Received:
    5,794
    Location:
    London, UK
    Nvidia would fight Microsoft for the right to fight Nintendo! :runaway:
     
  10. Cyan

    Cyan orange
    Legend Veteran

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2007
    Messages:
    8,572
    Likes Received:
    2,292
    They are being sold at a price, whether Nintendo rip some of the benefits for each emulator which is "legally" sold..it's their responsibility, I purchased SNES 8x, My Boy!, Purple Cherry X, VBA8, vNESLight, VGBC8, WVBA, NesBox Emulator, WSnes, EmiGens Plus (free version, not actually prchased, maybe some of the others too, I don't remember buying all of them, but most), Lynxtalgia Mini and SNESTalgia Mini for my widows phone. Emulators exist to compensate for obsolescence of the hardware. Do you think that's not legal?

    Regarding ROMS if you have your original copy you should be entitled to have a backup because you are the owner and paid for it and Nintendo aren't going to go after you and create a court case.

    Following your link it says:

    Does it mean it is legal? The bolded proposition doesn't look very realistic. In fact there are some Capcom arcade machines whose memory started to fail after a few years and only ROMS caused them to survive somehow.

    Gotta add that I don't play emulators of modern machines like Dolphin or the other new WiiU emulator whose name I can't recall now. But emulators are BIOS loaders and games loaders, people could copy their roms to a pendrive and have the X1 or Scorpio to load the games via emulator from the pendrive.
     
    bunge likes this.
  11. Scott_Arm

    Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2004
    Messages:
    13,274
    Likes Received:
    3,724
    I think in the face of a legal battle microsoft would probably just remove the app from the store. Probably rather fight the creator of the app in court than fight Nvidia, Nintendo or some other corporation.
     
    Billy Idol, BRiT and DSoup like this.
  12. Nisaaru

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    878
    Likes Received:
    196
    I thought they use DirectX and not some custom low level driver or allow games to access the HW directly in the old XBox.
     
  13. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,137
    Likes Received:
    5,074
    It was a very low level Xbox specific version of DirectX that used a lot of Nvidia specific graphics IP calls. Without reworking every single game, there's no way to provide backwards compatibility without using those Nvidia specific graphics IPs. Basically they'd have to remaster every single game to avoid having to pay Nvidia royalty/licensing fees for every game that ran in BC.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    Cyan likes this.
  14. Nisaaru

    Regular

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    878
    Likes Received:
    196
    And that specific NV IP contains patented functionality and isn't just some support code they can replace themselves easily or functions which are part of future DirectX APIs?
     
  15. Shifty Geezer

    Shifty Geezer uber-Troll!
    Moderator Legend

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2004
    Messages:
    40,701
    Likes Received:
    11,148
    Location:
    Under my bridge
    Hard-core drugs can be bought, but that doesn't mean they're legal. ;) Just because the emulators haven't been stopped, doesn't mean intrinsically that they are legal - could just be that no-one's done anything about it.

    The bolded part is explicit that you are entitled to make a copy from your own source. You're not entitled to grab a copy someone else has made, as I understand it.

    I think the emulators themselves are legal, as they are just software. What's illegal is the access to games you haven't copied yourself, as I understand it. But with all that said, there's a thriving 'industry' of nostalgic hardware that no-one's stopping, perhaps because it's more trouble than its worth, like Prohibition?

    But definitely, any of the console companies can come down hard on a rival supporting emulation. Play PS1, 2 and 3 games on your Scorpio? Never gonna happen (never say never! PSX on Windows 10 on Scorpio! :runaway:).
     
    Billy Idol, Silent_Buddha and AlBran like this.
  16. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    12,498
    Likes Received:
    8,698
    Location:
    Cleveland
    Where most emulators fail from a legal perspective is not the copying of the game ROM but the copying of the Console Boot ROM that is embedded in the console. If an emulator ships with a boot rom it violates copyright unless they have explicit permission from the copyright owners. This is how all the major players have won their lawsuits or granted injunctions.

    That is also how some emulators have been able to still exist and thrive (if the game roms or game cds or dvds include the boot code needed). An early PSX emulator won their defense against Sony, Bleem! emulator by Connectix. Despite that win for Connectix, Sony continued to file legal actions against them until they ran out of money to defend themselves.

    Today's current Gen consoles have this boot rom as part of the system partition on the hard drive. To legally emulate this, each user would have to still own the physical console.
     
    Billy Idol, Cyan, bunge and 4 others like this.
  17. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,137
    Likes Received:
    5,074
    Emulators are legal as long as they do not contain any code or microcode from the emulated device. Hence why the BIOS of a machine isn't included with any legal emulators.

    And as you mentioned, ROM images are only legal if they were created by the owner of the game and the owner must maintain ownership of the game. If they were to sell the game after making a backup of the game, then they are no longer legally entitled to use the image they created. This applies to the BIOS of the emulated device as well.

    In most countries this means playing games on emulators is completely legal as long as the above rules are followed.

    The reality, however, is that very few people actually make their own images (of the games or the BIOS) as that often requires specialized hardware. And hence, most people are illegally running emulated games.

    And as you mentioned, it isn't worth it for companies in general to go after people doing this. The cost is far too high (legal and court fees) in the case of individual users. What they'll go after are image repositories and distributors.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    Cyan, milk, AlBran and 1 other person like this.
  18. Silent_Buddha

    Legend

    Joined:
    Mar 13, 2007
    Messages:
    16,137
    Likes Received:
    5,074
    Basically. It would mean emulating the hardware of the Xbox in order to run the unmodified games. Emulating the Xbox either means Microsoft have to come up with a clean room implementation of whatever graphics calls/hardware that is patented by Nvidia for the GPU they licenced to Microsoft.

    The other option is to modify the games such that they no longer use any propriety graphics features or calls of Nvidia hardware in the original Xbox.

    Both options are likely more costly than any related benefit they might get from spending the time and money to do it.

    However, what is entirely possible is for a 3rd party to come up with a clean room (legal) Xbox emulator for UWP which could be run on Xbox machines. I haven't kept up with emulators for the past few years, so I'm not aware of whether any Xbox emulators have made significant progress, or if there's even any interest in making an Xbox emulator anymore.

    Regards,
    SB
     
    Cyan likes this.
  19. Riddlewire

    Regular

    Joined:
    May 2, 2003
    Messages:
    299
    Likes Received:
    145
    https://www.youtube.com/user/pcmaker2/search?query=xqemu

    None of the games are "playable" with the best current emulator. I'm guessing the developer(s) will die of natural causes before XQEMU ever achieves widespread "playable game" status.

    I emailed Robbie Bach after he left MS to ask him about their agreement with Nvidia on providing emulation for the X360. He said he "couldn't remember". Yeah, ok.
    Nvidia was far less helpful when I asked them, curtly refusing to speak about the matter.

    It's as if both parties wish the original Xbox would be wiped from the pages of history.
     
    Cyan likes this.
  20. BRiT

    BRiT (╯°□°)╯
    Moderator Legend Alpha Subscriber

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2002
    Messages:
    12,498
    Likes Received:
    8,698
    Location:
    Cleveland
    And soon enough Nintendo will experience some of this Nvidia 'joy' through the Nintendo NX project.

    I still would like for an Xbox Original emulator to be available on the Xbox One (and Win10 PC).
     
    RootKit likes this.
Loading...

Share This Page

  • About Us

    Beyond3D has been around for over a decade and prides itself on being the best place on the web for in-depth, technically-driven discussion and analysis of 3D graphics hardware. If you love pixels and transistors, you've come to the right place!

    Beyond3D is proudly published by GPU Tools Ltd.
Loading...