Does disk space affect graphics?

Also more storage capacity could lead to games that were not possible before, for instance i would like to see a game that goes back to prerendered backgrounds like the PS1 final fantasy games, but uses high bitrate 1080p FMV for the backgrounds (backgrounds that are so dynamic that the animation loop is a minute long for each background! :p), the quality of the graphics in this case would have a correlation to the amount of disk space required.

AFter playing alot of FFVII recently on my PSP i'm going to have to agree that this would be rather awesome... Especially for a game in the style of Heavy Rain or something like that.
 
Steam has Crysis at 7006 MB. Warhead at 6243MB. Stalker at 5605MB.

Fallout 3 , oblivion and other games are all under 8 gigs also on my hardrive though they are from the discs and not steam.
Well, I said "recent", and clearly we play different games. I was thinking of titles like Dragon Age (8 GB), Red Alert 2 (8.2 GB), The Last Remnant (12 GB) or Mass Effect 2 (9.6 GB). My Fallout 3 GotY edition (comes on 2 discs) install folder is 13 GB, but there are quite a few mods included there so that obviously doesn't count. As I said, there are certainly outliers downwards, like Dawn of War II at 4 GB.
 
If someone remembers...Farcry 2 was an extremely good looking game with good textures & sound, and the disk space it too in the PC ver was near 3.2GB. Same case with the recent AVATAR game which is a good looker too & that game too is approx 3GB in size.
 
Well, I said "recent", and clearly we play different games. I was thinking of titles like Dragon Age (8 GB), Red Alert 2 (8.2 GB), The Last Remnant (12 GB) or Mass Effect 2 (9.6 GB). My Fallout 3 GotY edition (comes on 2 discs) install folder is 13 GB, but there are quite a few mods included there so that obviously doesn't count. As I said, there are certainly outliers downwards, like Dawn of War II at 4 GB.

I just picked the most visualy impressive game on the pc. Cause this is does disc space affect graphics not the length of the game. Obviously mass efefct 2 , fall out , dragon age ( 15 gigs on my system ? ) are much longer games. But they all have much lower visuals compared to crysis.
 
I just picked the most visualy impressive game on the pc. Cause this is does disc space affect graphics not the length of the game. Obviously mass efefct 2 , fall out , dragon age ( 15 gigs on my system ? ) are much longer games. But they all have much lower visuals compared to crysis.

Those visuals may suffer if the game had to fit into less space.
 
Dragon's Age's visuals haven't got much room to suffer more than they alrady do. Texture resolution is attrociously last-gen in places.
 
Not really. Fmw is a crutch that's been used over the years to get around realtime rendering shortcomings. In more recent times it's also been used to mask loading. But it has far too many limitations. What if you want to play through a game with a different character? Do we need to render multiple cutscenes, one with every playable character? What if a character comes out of the water all wet then a cutscene hits, do you need to create two cutscenes one with him wet and one with him dry? What if I blow up a building, then a cutscene plays. Will that building still be there in the pre-rendered cutscene? Fmw is just two restrictive, it forces design decisions and bad continuity by it's mere presence. I think as far as in game cutscenes go, it will eventually go the way of the dodo.

I'm not a developer like you, but I disagree with you.
Masking loadtimes is something everyone should try to do, how you go about dosn't matter.
I'd take a decent FMV instead of a minute long elevator ride any day, or loading-screens any day.

I think that you could also make the same argument that realtime-movies is a crutch to get around diskspace-shortcomings.

Take Oblivion forinstance, it were incredible annoying to talk with Clara (feamle torso #3 with Clara-head), and then see Jasmine right afterward (female torso#3 with Jasmine Head) and a dozen other characthers using the same torso, sometimes the skin-colour didn't even match..
I'm pretty sure that if that had been FMV-videos, that would not have been accepted in the final product.

Realtime-rendering also have other problems, like with your blown up building.
Collison-detection are sometimes not that accurate in realtime-rendering, if the person walks right into the debris of the building, will parts of the building stick into the persons body?
It kind of ruins the cutscene if you see a dude talking with someone when there is a door sticking into his neck..
Stuff like that, the artist rendering manually will logically fix more often than a game-engine will, before it displays on your screen, in my experience.

Another thing wich is annoying is when pre-rendered cutscenes are more often available to view again, after you complete the game, but not the realtime cutscenes.
In Heavenly Sword forinstance, lots of great pre-rendered cutscenes were available after you completed the game, but one of the coolest were a realtime cutscenes like when Kai made fun of Sony's E3-presentation with massive damage joke.. for example, were gone.
I assume that this is probably because it's much more convenient for the developers to load the cutscene, instead of having to load all the assets and rebuild an alternate version of the cutscene afterward. :-/

Anyone who been gaming for a while, who remember Wing Commander and similar games, knows that FMV's aren't necesarry a bad thing, and can often be used to enchance the experience, instead of taking away from it.
It's only a bad thing when it's not done right (like in your building example), just like realtime rendered movies is a bad thing if it's not done right.
Most gamers couldn't care less if the PS3 is rendering the movie right now, or if the artist rendered the movie a year ago, and PS3 only plays it at the minute.
It's what's on the movie wich count.
 
It kind of ruins the cutscene if you see a dude talking with someone when there is a door sticking into his neck..
I saw Dragon Age Origins yesterday. There was a guy with his head rammed into a stone wall. The mood of a serious adventure has trouble withstanding scenes like that...
 
If someone remembers...Farcry 2 was an extremely good looking game with good textures & sound, and the disk space it too in the PC ver was near 3.2GB. Same case with the recent AVATAR game which is a good looker too & that game too is approx 3GB in size.

I just picked the most visualy impressive game on the pc. Cause this is does disc space affect graphics not the length of the game. Obviously mass efefct 2 , fall out , dragon age ( 15 gigs on my system ? ) are much longer games. But they all have much lower visuals compared to crysis.

crysis and farcry are similar in how often objects in the game can be repeated. Not too many variations on grass and trees needed if you get what I mean. Crysis is likely bigger because it has more variation in its levels. The alien ship and the ship for example. Games like the RPGs mentioned have, in addition to the levels, weapons, armour, character customizations etc to store. They decidedly have a hell of a lot more variation in NPCs as well.

Thats a good point about the in-engine realtime cutscenes in some games. They really dont even require much loading if it takes place in an already loaded setting. What was done with the Halo Reach trailer could also easily be done with in-engine cutscenes so that they match the look of the game better without any bugs. That still would require disc space.
 
Since the whole DVD space argument is coming up again, I'd like to add one recent observation I made. I primarily game on PC and buy my games via various DD services (so publishers have every reason to minimize download sizes -- bandwidth isn't free). Most of the recent big-budget games I bought are around 8-10 GB in size, with some outliers down and some up (mostly MMOs, but also eg. GTA4). So it seems that, even when targeting primarily current-gen consoles and trying to conserve space, a single DVD is no longer quite sufficient.

In any case, I'd answer the question in the title with a clear "yes", the room for discussion is only in extent.

Doesn't the Xbox 360 have a higher rate of texture compression than games which are DirectX 9.0c compatible? If this is the case then it does go a ways to explain the size difference.
 
crysis and farcry are similar in how often objects in the game can be repeated. Not too many variations on grass and trees needed if you get what I mean.

Actually both got lots of variation as in objects. Just load up the editor for either one and look at the massive list of unique assets that are all used across the games levels. As for textures it should be around 2000 unique textures in Crysis.


They really dont even require much loading if it takes place in an already loaded setting. What was done with the Halo Reach trailer could also easily be done with in-engine cutscenes so that they match the look of the game better without any bugs. That still would require disc space.

But very little if done on the play area. Like in Crysis the cutscenes use game level assets and just scripting for sequence and all in the play area that is already loaded.


But take games like Oblivion and Fallout 3 with 10's of thousands unique objects/textures...
 
Doesn't the Xbox 360 have a higher rate of texture compression than games which are DirectX 9.0c compatible? If this is the case then it does go a ways to explain the size difference.

The PC versions also usually sport high res textures and more to fit 512/1024MB VRAM. That sure will take up a lot even if stored in compressed archives.
 
I'm not a developer like you, but I disagree with you.

Ex-dev :) I exited the gaming biz and run my own company now, but I'm keeping tabs on the games biz and I'll be at E3.


Masking loadtimes is something everyone should try to do, how you go about dosn't matter. I'd take a decent FMV instead of a minute long elevator ride any day, or loading-screens any day.

I agree about masking load time, and an intro movie would be fine for that. The first boot of the game is the most brutal for load so I'm fine with using fmw to mask that, or at least to make it more bearable. I don't believe in in game fmv though. It's interesting that you bring up the elevator ride because in that particular example using fmw would only increase load time compared to doing it in game. Let's use Mass Effect 1 as the example, which I presume is what you are referring to. You and your crew run into the elevator, hit a button then wait for loading while the elevator ride happens. Compare an in engine elevator scene to an fmv one:

1) All the assets to display the elevator are already loaded. You walked into it in game so all data related to your characters and the elevator are already in memory. So once the elevator doors close you can you the optical discs full bandwidth to load up all the new assets while the engine takes care of displaying the elevator with assets already sitting in memory. Now contrast this with an fmw solution. You walk into the elevator and an fmv starts to play. That fmw is now eating up a portion of the optical disc bandwidth to stream itself off disc. It's not a large amount, but it's still a measurable amount. So now while it goes on to load up the assets for the next area it will have less disc bandwidth to do so. In the elevator case, an fmw solution would actually load the next area a touch slower.

2) What happens when you are in the elevator? Well, Mass Effect 1 does it in engine so they have many options. For one they display your custom character exactly as you designed him since they can do that, the engine is rendering everything anyways. In addition they have the character say random things. They can also do that since the engine will make their lips match whatever random things they are saying. So how about an fmw solution? Well for one we can't have your character look as you designed him as there are infinite possibilities there, so we'd have to have him put on a generic looking helmet as he went into the elevator. The elevator would probably be converted into an airlock type situation so we could explain why people area always putting on their helmets before walking in the elevator. Oh yeah, and your crew can't follow you into the elevator. We don't know who your crew mates will be, again there are many permutations there and we're not about to render dozens of airlock movies. So your crew will have to remain outside. Of course your character can be male or female, so we'd need to make two fmw's of everything as well.

In either case, fmv loses in both load speed and flexibility. You can see how if one went with fmv that parts of the game would have to be redesigned to accommodate it, most likely just replacing the whole sequence with a stock canned movie that actually would take longer to load compared to if it was done in engine in the first place.


I think that you could also make the same argument that realtime-movies is a crutch to get around diskspace-shortcomings.

Only if you have a game with everything fixed in the same scenario, which more and more is becoming looked at as old gen. Things will vary now, even more so next gen, so fmv won't cut it. Look at Mass Effect 2. Your dude has scars on his face that either progressively heal as you go more paragon, or get worse (or stay the same, can't recall since I'm paragon :) ) if you go renegade. How would that game element be possible to replicate with fmv? Have him always put on a helmet before entering a cutscene?


Take Oblivion forinstance, it were incredible annoying to talk with Clara (feamle torso #3 with Clara-head), and then see Jasmine right afterward (female torso#3 with Jasmine Head) and a dozen other characthers using the same torso, sometimes the skin-colour didn't even match..
I'm pretty sure that if that had been FMV-videos, that would not have been accepted in the final product.

Oblivion is a great example of why not to go fmv. The game has 24 hour lighting so the way people look will vary depending on when you talk with them. How would you do that with fmv? It's impossible, instead you'd have to go with a stock cheesy fmv. It might be a 1920x1080 30mbps fmv, but an incorrect and jarring one that would say always be in daylight when you talked to that guy even if it was sunset when you initiated the conversation. Regarding people standing around, if you are about to talk to someone and there are three people behind him mulling about, wouldn't it look strange if it suddently went to an fmv where there was no one behind him? Or what about items behind the person you are talking to, they are all dynamic in Oblivion. What if I knock all the items off the shelf behind him and then talk to him, wouldn't it look bizarre if suddenly an fmv kicks in with a nice and neat shelf behind him even though I decimated all of that stuff moments before?

Regarding varied faces, that is not a disc space but a time issue. Oblivion was a launch game so they could only do so much. It takes some time to make a random face generator + art that works convincingly. If they went fmv you probably would have seen the exact same faces as the in game version.


Realtime-rendering also have other problems, like with your blown up building.
Collison-detection are sometimes not that accurate in realtime-rendering, if the person walks right into the debris of the building, will parts of the building stick into the persons body?
It kind of ruins the cutscene if you see a dude talking with someone when there is a door sticking into his neck..
Stuff like that, the artist rendering manually will logically fix more often than a game-engine will, before it displays on your screen, in my experience.

Yeah that does happen, but those are technical issues that need to be resolved eventually one way or the other. A lot of that happened on early games when physics engines weren't as common. That will also be corrected more and more as time goes on, it will become a relic of "old gen" games.


Another thing wich is annoying is when pre-rendered cutscenes are more often available to view again, after you complete the game, but not the realtime cutscenes.
In Heavenly Sword forinstance, lots of great pre-rendered cutscenes were available after you completed the game, but one of the coolest were a realtime cutscenes like when Kai made fun of Sony's E3-presentation with massive damage joke.. for example, were gone.
I assume that this is probably because it's much more convenient for the developers to load the cutscene, instead of having to load all the assets and rebuild an alternate version of the cutscene afterward. :-/

That's a developers choice mostly. It is easier to play back movies of course compared to playing back an in-game cutscene, but both can be done. Now if you could play them back, wouldn't you prefer to watch them in the exact way they were in your particular world, complete with how your character looked, what he was wearing, how much he was injured at that time, and exactly how the level around him looked? Or having the ability to choose the time of day?


Anyone who been gaming for a while, who remember Wing Commander and similar games, knows that FMV's aren't necesarry a bad thing, and can often be used to enchance the experience, instead of taking away from it.
It's only a bad thing when it's not done right (like in your building example), just like realtime rendered movies is a bad thing if it's not done right.
Most gamers couldn't care less if the PS3 is rendering the movie right now, or if the artist rendered the movie a year ago, and PS3 only plays it at the minute.
It's what's on the movie wich count.

Yeah I remember Wing Commander, I loved that game and I told Chris Roberts that when I met him at CES way back then. Still have his business card actually :) But back then there was no choice. Now we have a choice, and continuity can be much better preserved with in game engine compared to fmv, without having to compromise game design to accommodate it. I think next gen will be strong enough to always stick with engine for cutscenes except perhaps for some launch titles when time is short, and perhaps for boot up movies.
 
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The PC versions also usually sport high res textures and more to fit 512/1024MB VRAM. That sure will take up a lot even if stored in compressed archives.

Do you know what the typical (before mod) breakdown of V.ram use is for some of the latest titles @ 1650 by 1050?
 
No not much except around or upto 512MB VRAM for many multiplatform games though some exceeds that. GTAIV is one example that needs upto 1.5GB VRAM for highest settings.
 
Add to that it completely depends on the graphics settings you choose on PC as Nebula briefly inferred at the end of his post.

Most PC games can fit into anywhere from 128 MB to greater than 1 GB depending on settings chosen. And depending on whether the dev put in assets for future graphics cards.

This doesn't happen as often as it did in the past, as now days you'll have people complain about crappy engines and sloppy programming when they try to run "next gen" settings on current/past gen hardware. Whereas in the distant past, you'd instead hear people say, wow I can't wait til I can run this game at full settings. Farcry launch (can't wait to run this on future hardware) versus Crysis launch (OMG bad programming ultra high doesn't run on current/past gen), for example. :)

Regards,
SB
 
Add to that it completely depends on the graphics settings you choose on PC as Nebula briefly inferred at the end of his post.

Most PC games can fit into anywhere from 128 MB to greater than 1 GB depending on settings chosen. And depending on whether the dev put in assets for future graphics cards.

This doesn't happen as often as it did in the past, as now days you'll have people complain about crappy engines and sloppy programming when they try to run "next gen" settings on current/past gen hardware. Whereas in the distant past, you'd instead hear people say, wow I can't wait til I can run this game at full settings. Farcry launch (can't wait to run this on future hardware) versus Crysis launch (OMG bad programming ultra high doesn't run on current/past gen), for example. :)

Regards,
SB

It's very ironic, as I love both games. I think Crysis and even GTA4 do a great job with the hardware they are are meant to be ran on.
 
Ex-dev :) I exited the gaming biz and run my own company now, but I'm keeping tabs on the games biz and I'll be at E3.




I agree about masking load time, and an intro movie would be fine for that. The first boot of the game is the most brutal for load so I'm fine with using fmw to mask that, or at least to make it more bearable. I don't believe in in game fmv though. It's interesting that you bring up the elevator ride because in that particular example using fmw would only increase load time compared to doing it in game. Let's use Mass Effect 1 as the example, which I presume is what you are referring to. You and your crew run into the elevator, hit a button then wait for loading while the elevator ride happens. Compare an in engine elevator scene to an fmv one:

1) All the assets to display the elevator are already loaded. You walked into it in game so all data related to your characters and the elevator are already in memory. So once the elevator doors close you can you the optical discs full bandwidth to load up all the new assets while the engine takes care of displaying the elevator with assets already sitting in memory. Now contrast this with an fmw solution. You walk into the elevator and an fmv starts to play. That fmw is now eating up a portion of the optical disc bandwidth to stream itself off disc. It's not a large amount, but it's still a measurable amount. So now while it goes on to load up the assets for the next area it will have less disc bandwidth to do so. In the elevator case, an fmw solution would actually load the next area a touch slower.

2) What happens when you are in the elevator? Well, Mass Effect 1 does it in engine so they have many options. For one they display your custom character exactly as you designed him since they can do that, the engine is rendering everything anyways. In addition they have the character say random things. They can also do that since the engine will make their lips match whatever random things they are saying. So how about an fmw solution? Well for one we can't have your character look as you designed him as there are infinite possibilities there, so we'd have to have him put on a generic looking helmet as he went into the elevator. The elevator would probably be converted into an airlock type situation so we could explain why people area always putting on their helmets before walking in the elevator. Oh yeah, and your crew can't follow you into the elevator. We don't know who your crew mates will be, again there are many permutations there and we're not about to render dozens of airlock movies. So your crew will have to remain outside. Of course your character can be male or female, so we'd need to make two fmw's of everything as well.

In either case, fmv loses in both load speed and flexibility. You can see how if one went with fmv that parts of the game would have to be redesigned to accommodate it, most likely just replacing the whole sequence with a stock canned movie that actually would take longer to load compared to if it was done in engine in the first place.




Only if you have a game with everything fixed in the same scenario, which more and more is becoming looked at as old gen. Things will vary now, even more so next gen, so fmv won't cut it. Look at Mass Effect 2. Your dude has scars on his face that either progressively heal as you go more paragon, or get worse (or stay the same, can't recall since I'm paragon :) ) if you go renegade. How would that game element be possible to replicate with fmv? Have him always put on a helmet before entering a cutscene?




Oblivion is a great example of why not to go fmv. The game has 24 hour lighting so the way people look will vary depending on when you talk with them. How would you do that with fmv? It's impossible, instead you'd have to go with a stock cheesy fmv. It might be a 1920x1080 30mbps fmv, but an incorrect and jarring one that would say always be in daylight when you talked to that guy even if it was sunset when you initiated the conversation. Regarding people standing around, if you are about to talk to someone and there are three people behind him mulling about, wouldn't it look strange if it suddently went to an fmv where there was no one behind him? Or what about items behind the person you are talking to, they are all dynamic in Oblivion. What if I knock all the items off the shelf behind him and then talk to him, wouldn't it look bizarre if suddenly an fmv kicks in with a nice and neat shelf behind him even though I decimated all of that stuff moments before?

Regarding varied faces, that is not a disc space but a time issue. Oblivion was a launch game so they could only do so much. It takes some time to make a random face generator + art that works convincingly. If they went fmv you probably would have seen the exact same faces as the in game version.




Yeah that does happen, but those are technical issues that need to be resolved eventually one way or the other. A lot of that happened on early games when physics engines weren't as common. That will also be corrected more and more as time goes on, it will become a relic of "old gen" games.




That's a developers choice mostly. It is easier to play back movies of course compared to playing back an in-game cutscene, but both can be done. Now if you could play them back, wouldn't you prefer to watch them in the exact way they were in your particular world, complete with how your character looked, what he was wearing, how much he was injured at that time, and exactly how the level around him looked? Or having the ability to choose the time of day?




Yeah I remember Wing Commander, I loved that game and I told Chris Roberts that when I met him at CES way back then. Still have his business card actually :) But back then there was no choice. Now we have a choice, and continuity can be much better preserved with in game engine compared to fmv, without having to compromise game design to accommodate it. I think next gen will be strong enough to always stick with engine for cutscenes except perhaps for some launch titles when time is short, and perhaps for boot up movies.

Thanks for that Joker, your contribution is as always very informative ;-)

You do make a very important and convincing point in the argument of in-game vs fmv for cut scenes, and when you think about it a little more in the context of most current gen-games FMVs generally won't cut it in most cases.

I must say though i am a bit partial to the old, "play a bit and get rewarded with a sexy FMV" model of yesteryear :D
 
I must say though i am a bit partial to the old, "play a bit and get rewarded with a sexy FMV" model of yesteryear :D
ha that cracked me up.
I remember back when real time cutscenes were starting to get more & more popular I was getting a bit disappointed & sad since I could no longer feel it the same as before, when you knew that you'll get an FMV after playing the game for few minutes. :)
 
I must say though i am a bit partial to the old, "play a bit and get rewarded with a sexy FMV" model of yesteryear :D

Agreed, but FMV is expensive, so be prepared for more and more companies to dump that with only the really well off companies (Blizzard for example) continuing to use it extensively.

So just like packaging being cut (computer games) to get costs down, FMV is gradually being phased out. Even though FMV is perhaps the greatest advantage for large storage mediums.

Sucks donkey nads, but nothing we can do about it.

Regards,
SB
 
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