Sony's Cross-Generation Game Messaging [2021]

Last years demo was also restricted to a corridor/on-rail showcase, there was no free roam going on as in this years demo which obviously is going to put more stress on assets.

It's free roam in the video you linked. Your video also has comments for example about the narrow corridor was there not to hide load time but to allow seeing that stone close by(as per brian karis in video). Initial demo was playable as asserted and shown by epic employees. Old demo content was shown in free roam mode in the new epic video minus the better lightning that was enabled in demo(not enabled in editor).

There is just no away around the fact that asset quality got lowered for the new demo. Reason given by brian karis was to make it work on all platforms. It did work on ps5 before so there is that. If I had to guess this was done because microsoft has not yet released directstorage. Streaming in windows will be lacking until DirectStorage is out. Sometimes software is needed and hw alone doesn't solve issue. Epic must have a build and windows version internally using directstorage but they cannot give it out until microsoft releases direcstorage for consumers.
 
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But its not profit if your sales are lower

I'm guessing rachet and clank PS5 will outsell the last rachet and clank game, now if this game also had to appear on PS4 then the PS5 game would be worse (yeah I know ppl go oh but the PC scales so its all good, well yeah nah :sly: thats why we don't typically have crysis's )
and Im guessing would of been less profitable

There's nothing about the current R&C that would preclude it running on PS4 with small modifications with the same gameplay. Obviously there would be a cost associated with ensuring that it runs well on PS4 as well as implementing those modifications. It'd cost more than 10k USD in man hours but probably less than 500k USD in man hours. And this is without changing the PS5 version in any way, shape or form.

Obviously asset quality would have to be reduced, how much depends on how you want to handle world changes.
  • pre-cache world change data in memory.
    • asset quality and scene complexity of viewable area greatly reduced to fit it into memory prior to entering new world.
      • constrain camera for a few seconds while enough data for the rest of the world is streamed into memory.
      • can be combined with a "fog" effect that hides more distant objects as they "pop" into existence in the fog. Fog effect recedes as world transition completes and all world objects are loaded.
    • benefit is that you maintain the instant world switches, drawback is that the switch itself will be much lower quality in some way during the switch.
  • world switch animation to hide asset loading of new world.
    • could be something as simple as a star wars warp like effect.
    • benefit is higher immediate quality once the new world is loaded, drawback is the load wait time
Gameplay is otherwise completely unaffected. Everything else in the game can be relatively easily scaled down to run on PS4.

So you'd end up with: The exact same game on PS5 as you can now play. PS4 is almost exactly the same with just lowered quality (asset quality and potentially asset density) and world transitions being handled differently.

You'd sell the exact same number of PS5 copies of the game + some number of copies to PS4 players. The question then becomes do enough copies sell to PS4 customers that it is a net profit? I'd say likely yes and not a small net profit yes, but a large net profit yes.

Regards,
SB
 
PS4 versions of games probably use a lot lower level assets. Halving resolution would reduce internal buffers and texture sizes to 1/4th of original size. Much easier to fit in ram/preload after scaling assets and rendering resolution down. In worst case ps4 asset quality would be reduced below what hw is capable of rendering, i.e. io-subsystem bottle neck.

I suspect some of the ps4 games could look better if ps4 had faster io-subsystem. Especially the original spiderman gdc presentation hints towards the limitation in ps4 platform being io-speed. No way to pull in extreme LOD versions in ps4, however on fast ssd+decompression this turns out a lot more feasible. PS4 spiderman relied on something like 20MB/s streaming speed. PS5 can reach much, much higher speeds which can turn out to pretty graphics as higher lod levels of assets can be pulled in on demand. Ratchet&Clank is showing this type of implementation as per developers. Only things seen by camera are kept ram. Rest is streamed in.
 
I'm currently replaying Dad of War, and the lack of enemy types is noticeable. There are a handful of reskins, but not quite enough variety in terms of actual, mechanical types. Given the comments of an Insomniac developer, in which they stated that they don't have to consider number and variety of enemies as any sort of limitation this time, it does make me concerned that this will still be a limitation in the next DoW.

That's likely as much a limitation of the art pipeline (it's expensive creating high quality assets including model, textures, and animation) as it is the hardware. And nothing precludes X version of the game having fewer NPC's than Y version of the game.

It was disappointing enough to know that flying speed would be gimped in Horizon Forbidden West. Now, I'm going to have a bunch of crouching through corridors, slowly climbing cliff faces, and limited enemy types in the next DoW.

This wasn't a hardware limitation as in the hardware wasn't capable of it. This was a limitation of the level of art or presentation that they wanted in the game limiting what they could then do with the game. The same applies to number of NPCs. The game could have had more NPCs (use the art budget to create more, but less detailed NPCs which consequently is less taxing on the hardware). They could have easily included flight (but at increased development time cost and some nebulous decrease in art/presentation quality elsewhere in the game).

I always find it laughable that people think flying was a hardware limitation of the PS4 in the game and not a conscious decision by the developers that flying just wasn't as important to them as having graphics/presentation be at X level that they wanted. Sure at X level of graphics/presentation, flying was an extra burden that they didn't want because they didn't want to reduce the presentation. But the hardware was fully capable of flight in that game had it been important enough for them to want to include it.

I mean Ark Survival Evolved is an open world game with dinosaurs ... and it has flight ... on the PS4. Granted, it runs like ass with a not well optimized engine, but it's also a MUCH smaller development team (at least when the game released) than what HZD had. Oh and you can build things like buildings and forts ... anywhere you want.

[edit] Oh and reading, Manux's post. At least HZ: FW went from flying was impossible to do on PS4 (HZD) because of hardware limitations to now somehow limited flying (gliding) is possible on PS4 because ... PS4 unlocked their hidden GPU? CPU? Secret Sauce? Or they just felt it was important enough that they now want to include it in the game. :p

Regards,
SB
 
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To me it looks Horizon plot is tied around ever increasingly complex and capable machinery. Like the glider and grappling hook which are new things in forbidden west. Perhaps in the last horizon aloy really learns to really fly somehow and the game turns out way more futuristic than one originally would have thought.
 
She becomes The BatWoman of the new world..
 
To me it looks Horizon plot is tied around ever increasingly complex and capable machinery. Like the glider and grappling hook which are new things in forbidden west. Perhaps in the last horizon aloy really learns to really fly somehow and the game turns out way more futuristic than one originally would have thought.

Yeah, one thing that flying complicates in open world games is progression. It's easier to put barriers that prevent accessing other parts of the world if you are limited to travelling on the ground, but significantly harder if you can also fly. Nothing worse than running into an invisible wall in the air to keep you from getting to an area that the developers don't want you to reach yet.

So yeah, gliding versus flying is likely a conscious choice to [1] show progression of technology in HZ: FW and [2] a compromise that still allows a level of control over how the player progresses through the world.

Regards,
SB
 
It did work on ps5 before so there is that. If I had to guess this was done because

Nah, UE5 tech demo PS5 was actually running even better on a 2080maxQ equipped laptop. The whole 'only possible on PS5' was debunked awhile ago by DF.
 
Nah, UE5 tech demo PS5 was actually running even better on a 2080maxQ equipped laptop. The whole 'only possible on PS5' was debunked awhile ago by DF.

Again. Nothing about only being possible in ps5. Is it that difficult to accept that asset quality was lowered?

I was just interested in how many ways this truth can be dodged. Gives me perspective
 
Again. Nothing about only being possible in ps5. Is it that difficult to accept that asset quality was lowered?

Well, it has certainly nothing to do with direct storage or any other concerns, since direct storage wasnt ready last year when the demo ran on the laptop either.

If I had to guess this was done because microsoft has not yet released directstorage.
 
That's likely as much a limitation of the art pipeline (it's expensive creating high quality assets including model, textures, and animation) as it is the hardware. And nothing precludes X version of the game having fewer NPC's than Y version of the game.

Being the same game is what precludes versions from having different quantities and varieties of enemies. Rendering resolution, polygon count, and animation quality don't mechanically change a game. Differing enemy types and quantities does.

There were PSP spin offs of PS3 games, and those spin offs were of such poor quality that they could barely be said to have any connection to the originals that spawned them. How many Wii versions of PS360 games required entirely separate teams and resulted in almost entirely different games?

The art pipeline plays some role in overall enemy variety, but the cost of most aspects of each enemy type is fixed, so the variety of enemy types in each combat encounter is a limitation of the hardware at higher-than-PS3 levels of presentation.

Reskins of the same enemy can share animations, sound files, polygon meshes etc. There's a small additional budget for reskins. Even discounting the IO subsystem, an extra 8GB's of memory is a substantial amount for greater variety. That additional 8GB is now virtually guaranteed to be used for extra lipstick.

This wasn't a hardware limitation as in the hardware wasn't capable of it. This was a limitation of the level of art or presentation that they wanted in the game limiting what they could then do with the game.

The hardware wasn't capable of it and still isn't at a level appropriate to the generation. You could fly the dodo in GTA3. No-one would accept a sudden drop to PS2 quality assets in HZD, and flying wouldn't feel like flying if you're moving like a feather being nudged along by a field mouse's fart.

This was a limitation of the hardware as well as the public's expectation of what that hardware should deliver. They could include supersonic flight if all textures and sound was suddenly stripped from the game. That doesn't make it a viable solution in the overall aesthetic.

But what is viable is that the flight in Horizon FW will be limited by the PS4's capabilities (bearing in mind that they aren't going to drop asset quality to ~Wii levels) and the PS5 will be used to slap on some tits and a wig.

The same applies to number of NPCs. The game could have had more NPCs (use the art budget to create more, but less detailed NPCs which consequently is less taxing on the hardware).

Sure, they could have infinite variety by reducing all enemy types to stick figures. But there's a limit and a balance. The NPC's you encounter are already relatively low quality compared to Aloy. How far can they go before there's a noticeable, generational disconnect between Aloy and those around her? As I've already pointed out above, reskins can share a lot of assets. Entirely different mechanical types cannot.

The fact that the recent PS5 gameplay reveal showed us a PS4 level of per encounter enemy variety backs this up. The PS5 version is mechanically limited by the PS4. Aesthetically, less so.

They could have easily included flight (but at increased development time cost and some nebulous decrease in art/presentation quality elsewhere in the game).

Easily? They could have easily included a form of flight that moves at the maximum galloping speed of a mount. And unless there's a substantial downgrade from Horizon ZD to the PS4 version of Horizon FW, that's what we can expect on the PS5 too. But with a fancier coat of paint.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, and the behind-closed-doors demonstration of a massively increased swinging speed in Spider-Man is clear evidence that movement speed is limited by IO. Now, moving at speeds imperceptible to anyone other than fighter pilots isn't saleable. But moving at speeds greater than an old lady pushing a shopping trolley while also seeing a generational improvement in asset density is.

I always find it laughable that people think flying was a hardware limitation of the PS4 in the game and not a conscious decision by the developers that flying just wasn't as important to them as having graphics/presentation be at X level that they wanted. Sure at X level of graphics/presentation, flying was an extra burden that they didn't want because they didn't want to reduce the presentation. But the hardware was fully capable of flight in that game had it been important enough for them to want to include it.

True. And now they've established their level of presentation. So for the PS4, they either substantially lower graphical quality when flying, or they limit flight speed to ensure asset quality remains comparable to the previous game.

I mean Ark Survival Evolved is an open world game with dinosaurs ... and it has flight ... on the PS4. Granted, it runs like ass with a not well optimized engine, but it's also a MUCH smaller development team (at least when the game released) than what HZD had. Oh and you can build things like buildings and forts ... anywhere you want.

Yes, and worms on the PS1 had fully destructible environments.

[edit] Oh and reading, Manux's post. At least HZ: FW went from flying was impossible to do on PS4 (HZD) because of hardware limitations to now somehow limited flying (gliding) is possible on PS4 because ... PS4 unlocked their hidden GPU? CPU? Secret Sauce? Or they just felt it was important enough that they now want to include it in the game. :p

No, it's because the gliding we've seen is slower than the horse-like mount or the ziplines from Horizon ZD. There's no magic going on here: a certain amount of data can be streamed from storage per second. If you're on the ground, and therefore limited in the axes along which you can move, that makes streaming prediction easier. When seeking equal graphical fidelity, and limited by the rate at which you can stream data, the speed at which you can move along fewer axes will always be greater than the speed at which you can move along more axes.

So either flight speed will differ between generational versions (meaning missions will be missing from the PS4 or flight won't factor into missions) or the PS5 will see solely graphical improvements.

All in all, I think you're being so reductive with your take on evolution and innovation that you probably shouldn't bother with any games invented after ~4500BC. "Pfft, it's just a differently sized ball and goal." "Tsk, yet another scoring system that could've been accomplished just fine by base 12." "Why do I need to see more than a single boob, ever? I can extrapolate infinite boobs from that one." "Come on now, why would anyone need opposable thumbs when we already have wrists?"
 
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...or the PS5 will see solely graphical improvements.

Bingo!

That's all practically every new console had brought once 3D movement and rendering became practical on console. There hasn't been much new introduced into console games since the PS1 other than graphical/presentation improvements.

VR has introduced a new viewpoint and improved the controllability of non-viewpoint centered controls, but the gameplay is still the same gameplay as we've had in games for years.

Flight speed will differ between generations? Seriously? As if Ace Combat 7 didn't exist on PS4? Whether there is flying or not whether it's slow flight or fast flight is purely a design decision and has absolutely Zero do with the hardware. No Man's Sky doesn't exist on PS4? GTA V doesn't exist on PS4? ...or PS3? PS4 didn't have Battlefield games?

C'mon man, you're better than this. Had Guerrilla Games wanted jets in HZD they would have had no problems implementing jets in HZD.

Next we'll be saying that underwater swimming isn't possible on PS4 because HZD didn't have underwater swimming. :p

Regards,
SB
 
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Bingo!

That's all practically every new console had brought once 3D movement and rendering became practical on console. There hasn't been much new introduced into console games since the PS1 other than graphical/presentation improvements.

VR has introduced a new viewpoint and improved the controllability of non-viewpoint centered controls, but the gameplay is still the same gameplay as we've had in games for years.

Flight speed will differ between generations? Seriously? As if Ace Combat 7 didn't exist on PS4? Whether there is flying or not whether it's slow flight or fast flight is purely a design decision and has absolutely Zero do with the hardware. No Man's Sky doesn't exist on PS4? GTA V doesn't exist on PS4? ...or PS3? PS4 didn't have Battlefield games?

C'mon man, you're better than this. Had Guerrilla Games wanted jets in HZD they would have had no problems implementing jets in HZD.

Next we'll be saying that underwater swimming isn't possible on PS4 because HZD didn't have underwater swimming. :p

Regards,
SB

Again graphics sells and the SSD gives the liberty to do anything without compromising the graphical quality. This is why it will free game design, you don't need to compromise anything you can keep graphical quality and design the game without thinking of streaming or RAM size limitation. The limitation comes from size of the game, CPU and GPU.


But at least the main limitation of the low streaming is gone.

Another things on game design side, it will help too indie because I think with better tools indie title visual will improve a lot this generation this is visible with games like The Ascent, Stray, Gunk, Kena Bridge of Spirit, Little Devil Inside...

And indie can and will innovate more on this side than AAA games.

And not having SSD impact a lot games development too. The constraint you talk about gives more job to the team.

We don't need to go far, The medium does this keeping two rendered version in memory and it compromise the visual quality and this is a current gen title without any PS4 and Xbox One version.

EDIT: The lead gameplay designer told too, this is the first type no type of ennemies was take out of the game due to technical constraint problem.
 
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Again graphics sells and the SSD gives the liberty to do anything without compromising the graphical quality. This is why it will free game design, you don't need to compromise anything you can keep graphical quality and design the game without thinking of streaming or RAM size limitation. The limitation comes from size of the game, CPU and GPU.


But at least the main limitation of the low streaming is gone.

Another things on game design side, it will help too indie because I think with better tools indie title visual will improve a lot this generation this is visible with games like The Ascent, Stray, Gunk, Kena Bridge of Spirit, Little Devil Inside...

And indie can and will innovate more on this side than AAA games.

And not having SSD impact a lot games development too. The constraint you talk about gives more job to the team.

We don't need to go far, The medium does this keeping two rendered version in memory and it compromise the visual quality and this is a current gen title without any PS4 and Xbox One version.

EDIT: The lead gameplay designer told too, this is the first type no type of ennemies was take out of the game due to technical constraint problem.

Yes, you've just said everything I've been saying.

It's not a hardware limitation, it's purely a graphics/presentation limitation. :)

The developers wanted X level of graphics/presentation and they will sacrifice whatever they can from game play in order to achieve that.

Just look at how much game play has "regressed" since PS3/X360. We don't have anything with the level of destruction that we saw in the Battlefield Bad Company games. However, on PC where graphics isn't everything we have games that have even more destruction than the BF: BC games ... on worse hardware than PS3/X360.

Hell, Red Faction on PS2, Xbox, GC had more destruction than we see in games on PS4.

Oh wait, I may have been too quick to judge. There is Minecraft on PS4/XBO. :) So it does exist, just no AAA developer other than Mojang wants to implement it.

It's because AAA developers have become so focused on graphics and presentation that those things matter more than almost anything else for AAA developers. That is the limitation in AAA games, not the hardware.

It's entirely possible to crank graphics up to 11 on PS5 and then once again, flying is "not possible." Not because the hardware isn't capable of it, but because graphics/presentation was cranked up to those levels.

If this isn't the case, then what people are basically saying is that PS5 is the pinnacle of console hardware and nothing better will ever be created. But that isn't the case, if a developer wants to push it hard enough, it'll certainly start to choke at which point the developer will start to have to pick and choose what they want to leave out of the game in order to achieve X level of graphics/presentation.

Regards,
SB
 
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Yes, you've just said everything I've been saying.

It's not a hardware limitation, it's purely a graphics/presentation limitation. :)

The developers wanted X level of graphics/presentation and they will sacrifice whatever they can from game play in order to achieve that.

Just look at how much game play has "regressed" since PS3/X360. We don't have anything with the level of destruction that we saw in the Battlefield Bad Company games. However, on PC where graphics isn't everything we have games that have even more destruction than the BF: BC games ... on worse hardware than PS3/X360.

Hell, Red Faction on PS2, Xbox, GC had more destruction than we see in games on PS4.

Oh wait, I may have been too quick to judge. There is Minecraft on PS4/XBO. :) So it does exist, just no AAA developer other than Mojang wants to implement it.

It's because AAA developers have become so focused on graphics and presentation that those things matter more than almost anything else for AAA developers. That is the limitation in AAA games, not the hardware.

It's entirely possible to crank graphics up to 11 on PS5 and then once again, flying is "not possible." Not because the hardware isn't capable of it, but because graphics/presentation was cranked up to those levels.

If this isn't the case, then what people are basically saying is that PS5 is the pinnacle of console hardware and nothing better will ever be created. But that isn't the case, if a developer wants to push it hard enough, it'll certainly start to choke at which point the developer will start to have to pick and choose what they want to leave out of the game in order to achieve X level of graphics/presentation.

Regards,
SB

I don't believe it because the SSD can load the full memory in a bit more than a second for dev using good compression. This is impossible to be the bottleneck, GPU can only render what is in memory. This is precisely why it is so fast. The game design limitation will come from the risk the designer want to take or game size or the CPU and GPU power. The average speed is behind 8 to 11GB/s with compressed data with oodle tools and it takes 0% of CPU power to use the SSD on PS5 and only one thread and a bit of CPU power on Xbox Series(only 10% of a core) and at 4.8 GB/s speed on average.

R&C Rift Apart is only 33.75 GB, the SSD is able to read the full content of the disk in 3 seconds if they use oodle Kraken and texture and if they only use oodle kraken in a bit more than 4 seconds.

And if the game was 100 GB it would take between 9 to 12 seconds and 200 GB between 18 to 24 seconds to read the full content of the game. Here the speed is so high because if at any moment the game need to fully replace the memory content it will be possible in 1 to 1.5 second. This is only useful for extreme case like portal.

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With GPU driven rendering engine like UE 5, the CPU is less and less involved into rendering out of few draw call, on PS5 the CPU is not involved in I/O and not involved in 3D audio on all consoles again if the AAA studios doesn't do the effort to improve physics, AI and gamepley this is because they don't want to take risk or they work on a cross gen game or a remake like Demon's souls where Bluepoint told they did not know what to do with the CPU power because it is a PS3 game design.

This time they doesn't have the HDD slow streaming data problem.

On consoles, CPU have plenty of power for gameplay code, AI and gameplay physics after I think indie can exploit it and give pretty good graphics too. With better tools I expect some indie to do some very good looking games and they can take some risks with gameplay, physics or story.

The best thing in R&C Rift Apart I heard from the team is not the loading speed or being able to use portal and load in 1 second but the fact this is the first game the lead gameplay designer works where no ennemy type were cut due to technical constraints. At least for the moment game size is not a problem.

Something better will be created with a faster and bigger SSD, more RAM, better bandwidth memory, more CPU and GPU power but this is a much better design than the PS3 where the developer were working with a very exotic CPU hard to master, non unified memory and limited to do streaming from the BR disk and the PS4 with the low power Jaguar and HDD limitation. Same for Xbox Series, they are better design than the generation before.

From an architectural point of view, I don't know how we can do better than this consoles out of more power, more memory, more memory bandwidth, faster and bigger storage. A low latency and fast storage, unified memory, a good CPU and GPU inside an APU and some coprocessor when it is needed(3d Audio, audio effect, I/O). PS5 and Xbox Series are clever design.

https://www.wired.com/story/playstation-5-six-months-later/
Cerny’s most recent developer tour happened virtually, of course, but he was surprised by what he found. “The conversations can be very contentious,” he says. “I actively seek out the people who will have strong opinions, who clearly lay out all the issues they're having with the hardware, so that we can get busy thinking about how we can address those in the future.” The PS3’s architecture made it difficult to get a graphics pipeline going; the PS4’s CPU wasn’t as powerful as folks hoped. The PS5, Cerny says, has found miraculously little pushback.

Thats intresting.

The game design will not be limited by the SSD but first by risk aversion in AAA where it is more safe and after by the CPU and GPU or later game size. And designer have probably tons of CPU power, on consoles the CPU doesn't do the I/O decompression and on PS5 doesn't do anything on I/O, for 3d audio there is the tempest engine(3D audio functionnality is always on because Mark cerny told this is at system level) and some DSP on Xbox Series side, it tooks probably a very low part of the CPU for audio because for audio effect some part of tempest engine power is let to the dev, with GPU driven rendering engine like UE 5 the CPU out of a few drawcalls do nothing in graphics part.

It means gameplay code, AI and physics can shine on CPU if the designer want it and the team is not working on a cross gen games or a remake or an established franchise. The CPU is much more powerful and it have less work to do on audio or I/O than the Jaguar core on PS4 or Xbox One.

EDIT: There is another advantage we don't talk enough with SSD, write speed is much faster than HDD too. It means this is much better for persistent world than HDD.
 
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With GPU driven rendering engine like UE 5, the CPU is less and less involved into rendering out of few draw call, on PS5 the CPU is not involved in I/O and not involved in 3D audio on all consoles

On pc those tasks are equally being taken care off using the GPU, in special with direct storage/RTX IO.

From an architectural point of view, I don't know how we can do better than this consoles

Dont worry, you can rest assured Sony and MS know ;)

The game design will not be limited by the SSD but first by risk aversion in AAA where it is more safe and after by the CPU and GPU or later game size. And designer have probably tons of CPU power, on consoles the CPU doesn't do the I/O decompression and on PS5 doesn't do anything on I/O, for 3d audio there is the tempest engine(3D audio functionnality is always on because Mark cerny told this is at system level) and some DSP on Xbox Series side, it tooks probably a very low part of the CPU for audio because for audio effect some part of tempest engine power is let to the dev, with GPU driven rendering engine like UE 5 the CPU out of a few drawcalls do nothing in graphics part.

I just found it intresting that 'the SSD gives the liberty to do anything without compromising the graphical quality.'
Maybe im reading it wrong, but thats a strong comment to make really.

I mean, every part of the consoles have gotten more powerfull, but it GPU, CPU, IO/SSD, audio and whatever, and all components needed the upgrade. But the SSD enabling developers to do anything they want, sounds abit too ambituous to me.
Were still seeing 30fps modes, limited ray tracing, and native 4k still is a far away thing. Where also quite far from the generational leap in fidelity we have had in previous generations launch games. We are still limited by something somewhere it seems.

PC's are already 3 to 4 times more powerfull and have much more advanced features and even there devs cant do anthing they want.
 
On pc those tasks are equally being taken care off using the GPU, in special with direct storage/RTX IO.



Dont worry, you can rest assured Sony and MS know ;)



I just found it intresting that 'the SSD gives the liberty to do anything without compromising the graphical quality.'
Maybe im reading it wrong, but thats a strong comment to make really.

I mean, every part of the consoles have gotten more powerfull, but it GPU, CPU, IO/SSD, audio and whatever, and all components needed the upgrade. But the SSD enabling developers to do anything they want, sounds abit too ambituous to me.
Were still seeing 30fps modes, limited ray tracing, and native 4k still is a far away thing. Where also quite far from the generational leap in fidelity we have had in previous generations launch games. We are still limited by something somewhere it seems.

PC's are already 3 to 4 times more powerfull and have much more advanced features and even there devs cant do anthing they want.

From a game design perspective they can do whatever they want. Raytracing and native 4k are not part of game design. Game and level designer don't care about resolution, graphical feature.

Here I just say than Game design will never been limited by graphical fidelity because the slower element the streaming is very fast. Design will not create a corridor or build the map around streaming limitation. And again if the GPU is able to display a LOD0 element it will never display a less detailed LOD because streaming is too slow. This is what Andrew Maximov ex ND technical artist director complain. The GPU of PS4 could have render scenery with more detail with a low latency and fast storage.

IF they want the player to use a portal this is possible.

IXNkd9.gif


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If they want the player to go at jet speed in a city without pop in due to streaming they can and wihtout compromising the graphical fidelity the console is able to reach:

And learn to read I never said than Sony and MS don't know.
I said that the next generation of console will have the same architecture low latency and fast storage(SSD), unified memory, and a powerful APU and I bet they will continue to keep some of the coprocessors(sound and I/O) .

But everything will improve faster and bigger size SSD, a more powerful APU with better feature set(CPU, GPU and coprocessor), more RAM, more memory bandwidth (3d staked infinity cache?) maybe the biggest innovation if it can work for the GPU.
 
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From a game design perspective they can do whatever they want.

Oh lol thats a whole different thing as opposed to 'devs can do whatever they want due to the SSD'.

Raytracing and native 4k are not part of game design. Game and level designer don't care about resolution, graphical feature.

Ray Tracing is just another graphical feature/effect just like so many others, mesh shaders is a feature aswell for example.That game and level designers dont care about graphics features was new to me though, Intresting.

Here I just say than Game design will never been limited by graphical fidelity because the slower element the streaming is very fast. Design will not create a corridor or build the map around streaming limitation. And again if the GPU is able to display a LOD0 element it will never display a less detailed LOD because streaming is too slow. This is what Andrew Maximov ex ND technical artist director complain. The GPU of PS4 could have render scenery with more detail with a low latency and fast storage.

Thats all nice and great, but everything thats on that SSD/memory still has to be rendered and processed somewhere. For example, one could have 64gb's of fast main ram and load a whole game into that, greatly surpassing PS5 IO abilities, but all that must be rendered aswell. Heck, even having a GPU with 24GB vram (like the 3090) and have almost a complete game loaded in that memory wont do much when that GPU is a GTX1060 class.

IF they want the player to use a portal this is possible.

No idea why your (dare i say spamming) so many GIFs and images, but that doesnt tell what the game actually is doing technically in the background. It doesnt say anything to me if that is possible on another platform than the PS5 for example.
Its very fast loading for sure, but on the other hand ive seen star citizen loading a whole planet in fraction of a second aswell as lightspeed travelling with zero loading.

And learn to read I never said than Sony and MS don't know. I said that the next generation of console will have the same architecture low latency and fast storage(SSD), unified memory, and a powerful APU and I bet they will continue to keep some of the [coprocessor/sound and I/O) .

Well, you where concerned there would be no architectural advancements next time, which i think is BS but ok. There will allways be architectural advancements even from here where we are now with PS5 and even 7gb/s+ RTX IO/direct storage IO solutions.
Your making very bold claims around here.

But everything will improve faster and bigger size SSD, a more powerful APU with better feature set(CPU, GPU and coprocessor), more RAM, more memory bandwidth (3d staked infinity cache?) maybe the biggest innovation if it can work for the GPU.

Again, there will be architectural improvements. Im sure many moons ago some thought the same. Aside from arch improvements yes the PS5 has many things it could have done better. Its kinda a AMD 2019 mid ranger now, with a high end IO solution.
 
Oh lol thats a whole different thing as opposed to 'devs can do whatever they want due to the SSD'.



Ray Tracing is just another graphical feature/effect just like so many others, mesh shaders is a feature aswell for example.That game and level designers dont care about graphics features was new to me though, Intresting.



Thats all nice and great, but everything thats on that SSD/memory still has to be rendered and processed somewhere. For example, one could have 64gb's of fast main ram and load a whole game into that, greatly surpassing PS5 IO abilities, but all that must be rendered aswell. Heck, even having a GPU with 24GB vram (like the 3090) and have almost a complete game loaded in that memory wont do much when that GPU is a GTX1060 class.



No idea why your (dare i say spamming) so many GIFs and images, but that doesnt tell what the game actually is doing technically in the background. It doesnt say anything to me if that is possible on another platform than the PS5 for example.
Its very fast loading for sure, but on the other hand ive seen star citizen loading a whole planet in fraction of a second aswell as lightspeed travelling with zero loading.



Well, you where concerned there would be no architectural advancements next time, which i think is BS but ok. There will allways be architectural advancements even from here where we are now with PS5 and even 7gb/s+ RTX IO/direct storage IO solutions.
Anyway, if you start to learn to write proper english, i'd have a better time actually reading what you mean. Your making very bold claims around here.



Again, there will be architectural improvements. Im sure many moons ago some thought the same. Aside from arch improvements yes the PS5 has many things it could have done better. Its kinda a AMD 2019 mid ranger now, with a high end IO solution.

Maybe you confuse 2020 and 2019 I don't remember an AMD GPU with raytracing in 2019.

For the cost it could not have done better. Again learn to read what is an architecture*. I gave the one in the PS6 and next Xbox. Again I don't care about having 64 GB for a console it is a stupid decison because it cost more than have a low latency and fast SSD and less memory.

*low latency and fast storage(SSD), unified memory, and a powerful APU and I bet they will continue to keep some of the (coprocessor/sound and I/O) . It can be the same specs than the PS5 or maybe an hypothetical PS6 with a RDNA 4/5 40 Tflops GPU, a 12 cores Zen 4/5 CPU, 24 GB of RAM of unified RAM and maybe 3d stacked infinity cache. At the end the power or the feature set is not important. The two machines share the same high level architecture design(low latency and fast storage(SSD), unified memory, and a powerful APU). Feature set, power are details not the high level architecture itself. I don't know what will be the PS6 feature set, I know the console will follow this design(low latency and fast storage(SSD), unified memory, and a powerful APU).

And another things read the message I quote @Silent_Buddha is talking about game design. I talk about the same not of native 4k or raytracing. Things that game and level designer does not care at all.

On this site you can learn how videogames are made:
https://www.gamedesigning.org/video-game-development/

This can help you to learn and said things making sense.

The gif are easy to understand it show very fast loading of GB of data from the SSD after maybe you don't know the game R&C Rift Apart. I will try to be more precise next time.
 
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