AMD Vega 10, Vega 11, Vega 12 and Vega 20 Rumors and Discussion

I wonder if Vega 20 will end up actually going beyond 64 CUs / 4096 sp. It's quite a way off and rumors aren't always right. Or maybe Vega 20 will be just what the rumor stated.

At some point, AMD will probably go beyond the 64 / 4096 configuration, whether its Vega 20, Navi 20.
 
I wonder if Vega 20 will end up actually going beyond 64 CUs / 4096 sp. It's quite a way off and rumors aren't always right. Or maybe Vega 20 will be just what the rumor stated.

At some point, AMD will probably go beyond the 64 / 4096 configuration, whether its Vega 20, Navi 20.

I think it is possible that they won't.

We've known about GCN's shader engine limit since Anandtech confirmed it as of GCN 1.1 in the context that GCN 1.2 was still consistent with that limit: http://www.anandtech.com/show/9390/the-amd-radeon-r9-fury-x-review/4

At the time of the Hawaii launch AMD told us that the GCN 1.1 architecture had a maximum scalability of 4 shader engines, and Fiji’s implementation is consistent with that. While I don’t expect AMD will never go beyond 4 shader engines – there are always changes that can be made to increase scalability – given what we know of GCN 1.1’s limitations, it looks like AMD has not attempted to increase their limits with GCN 1.2.

With Vega 10, we're in a similar situation in that Vega 10 is conveniently within that shader engine limit.

Vega 20 is also rumored to be within that shader engine limit: http://wccftech.com/amd-vega-10-vega-20-gpu-details-dual-gpu-graphics-card/

You combine that anecdotal evidence with the strong rumor that AMD is moving towards an MCM-style setup with multiple small die per GPU and you begin to wonder, "Does AMD ever need to scale beyond 4 shader engines per die?"

None of us can predict the future, but I can at least see a perfectly viable path where AMD doesn't need to waste their precious R&D dollars on this enhancement and the rumor mill has supported this path so far.
 
I'm still convinced, there never was a hard limit of 4 shader engines. AMD just never implemented a design with more than four. But fundamentally, their approach would of course work with a higher number of engines. Obviously they assessed, it wouldn't be worth the effort (diminishing returns without the transition to a more scalable setup and such). But there is nothing special about that number 4. Why should it be impossible to distribute stuff over 6 or 8 engines? Doesn't make the slightest sense to me.
 
I'm still convinced, there never was a hard limit of 4 shader engines. AMD just never implemented a design with more than four. But fundamentally, their approach would of course work with a higher number of engines. Obviously they assessed, it wouldn't be worth the effort (diminishing returns without the transition to a more scalable setup and such). But there is nothing special about that number 4. Why should it be impossible to distribute stuff over 6 or 8 engines? Doesn't make the slightest sense to me.

If the Southern Islands ISA is referenced, there is a software-visible limit to the number of shader engines within a given context. AMD didn't strip the HW_ID register's layout until later products. There is no room above or below the SE_ID bits to go beyond four.
It's labelled as only being for debug purposes, although if it shows up in the ISA it could also be an underpinning assumption in other areas of the architecture. The fixed-function pipeline and any number of arbitration/return paths could have been implemented with N bits of input/state, and as a hardware register HW_ID might also figure into microcode and sequencer formats--possibly awkwardly situated in the middle of various instruction or code-store lines.
Even if it were limited to debug purposes, it would be somewhat problematic in the >4 SE case if an increasing fraction of threads existed outside any way to debug them.

AMD could have looked at the prospect of reimplementing the blocks or blowing out microcode lines up and down the pipeline and decided not to. It seems possible that portions of the pipeline were given limited room for expansion or communication, and Southern Islands apparently had more DNA in its fixed function portion rooted in the past.
If the limit was baked into Southern Islands, AMD might not have bothered to remove it for successive generations up to when it was asked about why certain counts weren't scaling.
 
If the Southern Islands ISA is referenced, there is a software-visible limit to the number of shader engines within a given context. AMD didn't strip the HW_ID register's layout until later products. There is no room above or below the SE_ID bits to go beyond four.
It's labelled as only being for debug purposes, although if it shows up in the ISA it could also be an underpinning assumption in other areas of the architecture. The fixed-function pipeline and any number of arbitration/return paths could have been implemented with N bits of input/state, and as a hardware register HW_ID might also figure into microcode and sequencer formats--possibly awkwardly situated in the middle of various instruction or code-store lines.
Even if it were limited to debug purposes, it would be somewhat problematic in the >4 SE case if an increasing fraction of threads existed outside any way to debug them.
You refer to Southern Islands, i.e. GCN v1 (which had a maximum of 2 shader engines implemented). Later generations routinely changed small bits of the ISA anyway. Why not change these bits, too? After all, there are 4 unused bits in there. It would be a piece of cake to remap one of them to have 3 bits for the shader engine. Or even simpler, repurposing the neighboring SH_ID bit to have directly a 3 bit SE_ID. Or do you know any GPU with two shader arrays per shader engine? AFAIK all AMD GPUs have only a single shader array per shader engine.
Anyway, these bits are the least of the issues when extending a GPU to more than 4 shader engines. Assuming this to be a serious issue would be like claiming you can't have any new instruction set extensions for x86 anymore because you run out of ID bits in the CPUID instruction (or because they were not yet defined in some older CPU). Frankly, that would be ridiculous. You just make up new ones with a new chip. It has always worked that way (and of course software has to be aware of the new stuff to properly recognize it, also as always).

Edit:
Just as an example for such a remapping within the GCN ISA (but way more intrusive), Vega remaps the values of the dependency counters (it allows a higher number of outstanding memory accesses). And that is a pretty central thing, not just some read-only registers for debug purposes.
 
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You refer to Southern Islands, i.e. GCN v1 (which had a maximum of 2 shader engines implemented). Later generations routinely changed small bits of the ISA anyway. Why not change these bits, too?
There's generally not much at the external ISA level that I can see that would stop shuffling things around, although just doing that would probably entail some amount of software change in AMD's tools and microcode.
The possibility I'm considering is that the bit allocation listed is a case of low-level implementation details bleeding through like the manual wait states and race conditions. The hardware register may be reflective of what the units are wired, and their respective logic blocks and firmware would process that many bits and would be sized to those limits.

Changing it at that point would have small knock-on effects down everything that might be related to it: wavefront arbitration, s_sendmsg sends IDs for interrupts, this interrupt generation block gets changed, the state manager in the CU would change, internal microcode could be written for it, a set of validated hardware blocks in the fixed function pipeline has been designed up to that range, etc.
AMD might have looked at what it would have to modify just for that field and decided it wasn't worth it since it didn't hit the limit until Fiji, which is the GPU where AMD was asked about why certain unit counts were hitting a ceiling.

Anyway, these bits are the least of the issues when extending a GPU to more than 4 shader engines. Assuming this to be a serious issue would be like claiming you can't have any new instruction set extensions for x86 anymore because you run out of ID bits in the CPUID instruction (or because they were not yet defined in some older CPU). Frankly, that would be ridiculous. You just make up new ones with a new chip. It has always worked that way (and of course software has to be aware of the new stuff to properly recognize it, also as always).
There is precedent for low-level details affecting x86 externally. FMA3 was introduced by the CPU vendor whose micro-op format did not support 3 input operands, while FMA4 was introduced by the vendor whose macro-ops did.

Edit:
Just as an example for such a remapping within the GCN ISA, Vega remaps the values of the dependency counters (it allows a higher number of outstanding memory accesses). And that is a pretty central thing, not just some read-only registers for debug purposes.
Is that in the driver patches that were released? Vega adds a lot more than that, such as new command packets, bumping various pointers to 64-bit, new microcode infrastructure, and all the new details for the revised GFX9 hardware, and so on. If all that is being re-developed or replaced, then an incremental change in what is already being rewired seems fine.
 
There's generally not much at the external ISA level that I can see that would stop shuffling things around, although just doing that would probably entail some amount of software change in AMD's tools and microcode.
You mean like changing a single line in some profiling tool?
The possibility I'm considering is that the bit allocation listed is a case of low-level implementation details bleeding through like the manual wait states and race conditions. The hardware register may be reflective of what the units are wired, and their respective logic blocks and firmware would process that many bits and would be sized to those limits.
These bits just return where exactly (shader engine ID, shader array ID within that engine, CU ID, SIMD ID, threadgroup ID, wavebuffer ID; or also compute ring ID if applicable) the executing shader code is running on, nothing more. It's basically the equivalent of checking the local APIC ID with the CPUID instruction on an x86 multicore/multithreaded CPU.
How the units are wired internally changes with every different chip size anyway.
There is precedent for low-level details affecting x86 externally. FMA3 was introduced by the CPU vendor whose micro-op format did not support 3 input operands, while FMA4 was introduced by the vendor whose macro-ops did.
Which is something completely different than how some ID bits are mapped. The hardware actually doesn't need to know/understand the mapping of these bits, it only has to mindlessly return the ID bits assigned to the executing hardware (and yes, they are at least partially configurable by the firmware) if a shader instruction wants to read them.
Is that in the driver patches that were released?
Yes. There were patches preparing the LLVM compiler for Vega which included such details.
Vega adds a lot more than that, such as new command packets, bumping various pointers to 64-bit, new microcode infrastructure, and all the new details for the revised GFX9 hardware, and so on. If all that is being re-developed or replaced, then an incremental change in what is already being rewired seems fine.
It's true that Vega adds much more. It was just an example that such remapping of bits can be done if one wants it (and x86 adds some CPUID stuff all the time, basically with every new chip). And in that case it is crucial for the core functioning of the hardware and not just for some runtime debug information gathering. But all other GCN iterations (besides Polaris maybe) also introduced new instructions, removed instructions, added features (and bits at some points), and also changed the encoding of instructions.

To sum it up, I fail to see a convincing argument why there should be a hard limit for the number of shader engines. Adding a single bit to some IDs, modifying the work distribution or the interleaving pattern for the rasterizers and ROP partitions to accommodate more shader engines and all that related stuff is totally doable and should pose no fundamental problem. There is no GPU with more shader engines because AMD decided against it, not because it couldn't be done because of some inherent limits.
 
You mean like changing a single line in some profiling tool?
That sounds like it would be one item, but I was thinking also of the microcode loaded by the GPU for internal load balancing parameters like the CU reservation and high-priority queue functionality that was retroactively applied to some of the prior generation GCN GPUs.

These bits just return where exactly (shader engine ID, shader array ID within that engine, CU ID, SIMD ID, threadgroup ID, wavebuffer ID; or also compute ring ID if applicable) the executing shader code is running on, nothing more. It's basically the equivalent of checking the local APIC ID with the CPUID instruction on an x86 multicore/multithreaded CPU.
To clarify, I am not saying the external bits are determining the fate of the internals, but that they can be reflective of peculiarities below the surface, such as evidenced by APIC IDs and Zen.
There's a desire for economy in the external encoding, so it would tend to use as few bits as necessary for a design in the ISA, while having fewer than the internal usage would compromise the purpose of the instructions that return the external bits.
So when items deviate from the most straightforward use case, I wonder if there's a reason.

How the units are wired internally changes with every different chip size anyway.
That runs counter to some of the goals for the GPU architecture for parallel scaling through copy-pasting more of the same resource. I wouldn't want to re-roll a CU sequencer based on whether it is going into a chip with 1 or 4 shader engines, or if a specific chip can have 1:4 DP in consumer and 1:2 in HPC. AMD marketed GCN's tunable DP rate, which should have been a trivial point if following the "any hardware can be redesigned to hit X rate", unless it's something they explicitly made tunable without that amount of effort.

In a compromise against infinite scalability, I wouldn't want to bloat the pipeline or resource scoreboards with 32-bit identifiers for all those items either.
It's unsubstantiated speculation on my part that there are elements of the architecture that were laid down earlier with an upper bound to how far they could go before changes had to propagate to other IP blocks. I have seen other commentary about Southern Islands in particular having a fixed-function portion closer to Northern Islands than the more flexible front ends sported by SI and CI.
I think then that GCN languished longer than expected and more clearly hit some of those limits with Fiji.

I don't know about Vega. The supposedly new CU architecture, new GFX level, and changes in interconnect and microcode make me think there is ample opportunity to raise the limits or choose a topology that can scale better, although Vega 10's starting point and Vega 20's apparent continuation don't push the specs outside of the old bounds.

Which is something completely different than how some ID bits are mapped. The hardware actually doesn't need to know/understand the mapping of these bits, it only has to mindlessly return the ID bits assigned to the executing hardware (and yes, they are at least partially configurable by the firmware) if a shader instruction wants to read them.
Like you noted earlier, I cannot think of a reason why HW_ID has a bit for shader array assignment when there's only one. I do not know why roughly two bits of IB_STS concern themselves with outstanding vector ALU operations per wavefront, at least no reason at the external ISA level or above. It should have been trivial at some point to remove them if they had no significance or cost to remove/repurpose.


Yes. There were patches preparing the LLVM compiler for Vega which included such details.
I think I found what you are referencing. Is it the following from February?
https://github.com/llvm-mirror/llvm/commit/83c857cd3ae73d71958ccee8c43d55dc40ba3cc1

It's true that Vega adds much more. It was just an example that such remapping of bits can be done if one wants it (and x86 adds some CPUID stuff all the time, basically with every new chip).
For VMCNT, it does a bit more than remapping. It adds two more bits to vmcnt by utilizing non-adjacent bits. This consumes the remaining bits in the 16-bit immediate while also preserving the valu_cnt bits that the ISA doc don't really talk about or keep an accurate count of.
I suppose the split at the ISA level is for the purposes of software compatibility, though I have been curious as to what might be depending on valu_cnt, since it officially doesn't merit mention for the instruction that should be using it (or for that matter an accurate bit count vs LGKM_CNT).

And in that case it is crucial for the core functioning of the hardware and not just for some runtime debug information gathering. But all other GCN iterations (besides Polaris maybe) also introduced new instructions, removed instructions, added features (and bits at some points), and also changed the encoding of instructions.
It's the flexibility of the GCN representation and the idiosyncrasies of the various wait states that make me wonder if there's additional microcode or a program store below the level of the fetched instructions, perhaps like earlier microcoded processors or the small array of sequencer instructions used by early ARM. Fiddling with some of the bits used by that may mean fiddling with the ucode/program store, should there be room left to do so.

To sum it up, I fail to see a convincing argument why there should be a hard limit for the number of shader engines. Adding a single bit to some IDs, modifying the work distribution or the interleaving pattern for the rasterizers and ROP partitions to accommodate more shader engines and all that related stuff is totally doable and should pose no fundamental problem.
My scenario isn't that it is impossible, just that it is past a threshold where the investment became non-trivial and in AMD's eyes not worth the effort.
AMD left GCN in something of a holding pattern for several cycles, so some economies of effort were made.
 
Looked but did not see this posted yet.
he just say word by word exactly what raja said long months ago

Looks like it came from this article: https://videocardz.com/67642/amd-radeon-rx-vega-is-just-around-the-corner

It took me a while to find a good video source without Chinese narration from AMD Tech Summit, but I finally found it. During this event Lisa Su announced Ryzen 5 availability date, various demos were shown, but more importantly we learned some new stuff about Vega.

AMD Vega in notebooks
The most interesting part was covered by Scott Herkelman, a co-founder of BFG-Tech and former general GeForce manager at NVIDIA, currently a vice-president of AMD. His segment was entirely devoted to Vega.

So what did we learn? First off we were told us that Vega will go into notebooks. By decreasing the footprint of the memory by stacking VRAM dies, less space is required and therefore it’s more likely to be adopted by notebook makers. This never happened with Fiji, mostly because of high power requirements, but Vega is not just one graphics card, but a new architecture that will be adopted in various ways, one of them will be mobile Vega. Sadly, we don’t know if this means dedicated graphics cards or just integrated graphics that will go into APUs, but one way or the other, Vega will be present in notebooks. Scott explained that this will allow OEM partners to create “thinner and lighter notebooks, that still pack that punch you need to drive virtual reality or the latest and greatest AAA games” (for me that sounds like a dedicated GPU).

AMD Vega will be available with 4GB and 8GB memory capacity
I think this is the most interesting tidbit from the whole presentation. Herkelman explained that “Vega will use HBM2 that has different capacity stacks”. He then added: “you will see from our board partners different configurations, whether that’s 4 Gig or 8 Gig or those types of memory architectures that will allow you to drive different games and different resolutions based upon what capacity stack they end up using”. That sounds like AIBs will have the option to use single stacks or double stacks of HBM2 memory. So Vega might be available with one or two stacks and that, as you probably know, will affect memory bandwidth, because the more stacks the chip has access to, the higher the bandwidth. But we are yet to see if there will be 2GB HBM2 stacks so that the board partners could still offer 2 stacks with full bandwidth, but only 4GB memory.

Where is Vega?
Mr. Herkelman did not tell us when Vega will launch. He did, however, say that Vega is “just around the corner”, and AMD will share details about new Vega technologies as we get closer to the launch.

Did we previously know that Vega would be available in 4GB variants? I think that's new. And it appears to be using 2GB stacks so there's no reduction in effective bandwidth.

I guess AMD is serious about their "cache controller" if they want to sell a >$400 GPU in 2017 with only 4GB of VRAM. We all know the magical things that happen to poor Fiji and its infamous VRAM buffer...

Also, it's good that Vega is finding its way into notebooks. I always wondered why AMD never put Fiji in notebooks despite only having Tonga lead their notebook lineup in 2015. I guess it was too big to fit on an MXM-B card, but Vega 10 isn't.
 
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Yeah the 4GB is new but theres really little new info, it was a waste of time and the guy was so nervous that he couldn't say 2 words before stutter...AMD needs to step up in his presentations.

For me the important thing that he mention was that the cache is programmable so it can be personalize? I really want to know more, looks like the next big thing in VGAs
 
Yeah the 4GB is new but theres really little new info, it was a waste of time and the guy was so nervous that he couldn't say 2 words before stutter...AMD needs to step up in his presentations.

For me the important thing that he mention was that the cache is programmable so it can be personalize? I really want to know more, looks like the next big thing in VGAs

Yeah, he was a pretty unexperienced speaker.

The thing that I found most interesting was the notebook mention.

Since they didn't mention whether it was Vega 10 and/or 11 performing notebook duty, then I see two possibilities from him mentioning that HBM enabled notebook offerings:
  • Vega 10 is going into notebooks to combat the mobile 1080 in the ~150W arena.
    • This is probable because Vega 10 will be coming earlier and AMD desperately needs to be competitive in the high end mobile space.
    • It's not probable for a couple reasons:
      • The 225W Vega 10 would need to be binned/underclocked to get down to the necessary ~150W. This is a problem because the last "true" mobile gaming card from AMD was the RX 470 prominently found in Alienware laptops and they really marketed that it was an exact copy of the desktop variant (and it was). If AMD wants to continue that trend, then a 225W card isn't going on an MXM-B board (200W power limit).
      • Vega 10 might literally just not fit on MXM-B or might not be able to be profitably cut down to ~150W. Fiji never made it into mobile despite the Nano getting down to 175W, so I can only assume there were size issues (?) that would also affect the similarly large Vega 10.
  • Vega 11 is the one going into notebooks, so this is a confirmation that it uses HBM (likely one stack of HBM2, i.e. 256 GB/s of b/w).
    • This is probable for two reasons:
      • Vega 11 using HBM would strongly suggest one stack of HBM2, which could provide 256 GB/s, which is what the 480 currently uses. This is convenient because Vega 11 is rumored to replace Polaris 10's performance level.
      • Vega 11 is rumored to be at or around 150W, so it could be translated over to mobile with no fancy binning or lower power limits.
    • This isn't probable because 150W single-stack Vega 11 wouldn't get close to the performance of mobile 1070 or 1080, as GP104 is just brutally efficient.
One thing to note is that Vega 11 would almost certainly make it into notebooks if it puts off at or around 150W in desktop form. But I don't think we've received any rumor that suggests that it uses HBM as opposed to some kind of GDDR.
 
The problem with vega11 rumor is that if that was true, why would AMD need to rebrand the polaris cards as 500 series? doesn't make sense. Unless vega11 will come next year or idk a diferent performance stack with P10 being mid-low tier and vega 11 high with vega 10 top tier? idk really the rumors info doesn't add.

Could vega11 be the APU arq?
 
The problem with vega11 rumor is that if that was true, why would AMD need to rebrand the polaris cards as 500 series? doesn't make sense. Unless vega11 will come next year or idk a diferent performance stack with P10 being mid-low tier and vega 11 high with vega 10 top tier? idk really the rumors info doesn't add.

Could vega11 be the APU arq?

The explanation that I liked has a couple points:

AMD needs a cheap GPU to let people meet the min VR spec. AMD's Roy Taylor talked extensively about how Polaris's "shtick" was making VR accessible (remember this is how we knew that Polaris was going to be mid-range). Polaris 10 needs to exist purely to be a cheap way to get a VR-worthy machine. That means no HBM.

Meanwhile, Vega's "thing" is HBM, so it makes sense to see it in Vega 11. It's not rumored anywhere (to my knowledge), but it's strongly suggested by roadmaps.

AMD-GPU-Roadmap-Polaris-Vega-Navi.jpg


If Vega 11 uses HBM2, then it effectively must be one stack. Vega 10 uses 2 and Vega 11 can't be the same as Vega 10, so unless Vega 11 uses 3+ stacks, it's 1 stack.

One stack means as much bandwidth as Polaris 10's 256-bit 8Gbps setup. So performance will be pretty much like Polaris 10 (perhaps a bit higher if Vega can use that bandwidth more efficiently).

The last point is that Polaris 10 is terribad at laptops. The 480 needs more than its allotted 150W, so really only the 470 could ever be put into laptops without any binning/power limits (and that's what happened). A GPU at around 150W with HBM and a more efficient architecture would do much much better in laptops.

But not only laptops, but also SFF machines. Remember AMD's best friend that's obsessed with stupidly SFF stuff? Yep, Apple. They will need Vega 11 as well.
 
Yeah, he was a pretty unexperienced speaker.

The thing that I found most interesting was the notebook mention.

Since they didn't mention whether it was Vega 10 and/or 11 performing notebook duty, then I see two possibilities from him mentioning that HBM enabled notebook offerings:
  • Vega 10 is going into notebooks to combat the mobile 1080 in the ~150W arena.
    • This is probable because Vega 10 will be coming earlier and AMD desperately needs to be competitive in the high end mobile space.
    • It's not probable for a couple reasons:
      • The 225W Vega 10 would need to be binned/underclocked to get down to the necessary ~150W. This is a problem because the last "true" mobile gaming card from AMD was the RX 470 prominently found in Alienware laptops and they really marketed that it was an exact copy of the desktop variant (and it was). If AMD wants to continue that trend, then a 225W card isn't going on an MXM-B board (200W power limit).
      • Vega 10 might literally just not fit on MXM-B or might not be able to be profitably cut down to ~150W. Fiji never made it into mobile despite the Nano getting down to 175W, so I can only assume there were size issues (?) that would also affect the similarly large Vega 10.
  • Vega 11 is the one going into notebooks, so this is a confirmation that it uses HBM (likely one stack of HBM2, i.e. 256 GB/s of b/w).
    • This is probable for two reasons:
      • Vega 11 using HBM would strongly suggest one stack of HBM2, which could provide 256 GB/s, which is what the 480 currently uses. This is convenient because Vega 11 is rumored to replace Polaris 10's performance level.
      • Vega 11 is rumored to be at or around 150W, so it could be translated over to mobile with no fancy binning or lower power limits.
    • This isn't probable because 150W single-stack Vega 11 wouldn't get close to the performance of mobile 1070 or 1080, as GP104 is just brutally efficient.
One thing to note is that Vega 11 would almost certainly make it into notebooks if it puts off at or around 150W in desktop form. But I don't think we've received any rumor that suggests that it uses HBM as opposed to some kind of GDDR.
So you're actually now suggesting that Vega will offer (practically) no perf/watt benefits over Polaris?
 
Speculation continues.
I think V11 will be about half the size of the V10, (or maybe a little more 250-300 mm2), with 4 gb HBM. This will fit nicely into performance laptops. I also think it will launch late summer 2017. Later on I think it will replace Polaris at the mid/high end desktop market with performance similar to GTX 1070 but with better performance/watt.
 
So you're actually now suggesting that Vega will offer (practically) no perf/watt benefits over Polaris?

I didn't intend to suggest that. My apologies for any miscommunication.

When I said that Vega 11 will probably be "at or around 150W", I meant that it could either match Polaris 10's performance at a lower power consumption (perhaps in or around 120W, for example), or it could slightly exceed Polaris 10's performance at 150W or some mixture of the two. In the context of this speculation, it's not relevant exactly how close it comes to Polaris 10 other than it's close enough to need just one stack of HBM.

There's a third option, which is both Vega chips will be found in notebooks for different performance ranges.

Yeah, if Vega 11 is smaller than Vega 10, then it'll trivially be a good fit for laptops no matter what.

But Vega 11 could use something other than HBM. The takeaway from that video is that there's a Vega GPU that uses HBM that's going into notebooks. If that's not Vega 10, then it's a confirmation that Vega 11 uses HBM (as opposed to, say, GDDR5).
 
The only thing that I don't understand is why would AMD rebrand P10 cards if vega11 is aim to that market and will be better?
 
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