which gvnt will kill more people US in Iraq or France w/heat

Yes they could have put all the older people in hospital just in case one of them was one that will have a chance to die.

For now so in the whole france we had 3000 more death than last year in the same time frame due to anormal heat and that some old people are weaker than other.

What people forget is theses people were going to die in the next months (only old people died from that) and than for the next year we will see in statistics less death than expected considering the same time frame past years.

To give you an exemple, in an hospital for old people they had 7 deaths in that time frame against one last year. What could be done more, they were already in hospital....

I am sure you will find same results in the other europeans countries with the same heat wave but it's not sure that health agencies did same public warning :)
 
so as long as they were going to die in the next few months anyway, why even spend money keeping them alive. Wow, I dont even where to begin. Well I guess people who only have less than 6 months left to live shouldnt get anymore healthcare. Their going to die anyway, right?

I guess once your at the end of your rope, you might as well let go, since your a burden to your society.

later,
 
also since I am not from france, I decided to get a link that describes the situation, I think le monde is france's biggest newspaper. So i hope they are trust worthy. ;)
http://www.lemonde.fr/article/0,5987,3226--330757-,00.html

frances leading newspaper is quoting that the death toll could rise to 5,000.

I dont think i have found one news site online that has a doctor, medical proffesional, or health minister who does not think that the french govermnent could have prevented the death toll to be so high.

later,
 
Accoarding to this research it seems that ppl adapt to the heat after some time. Makes kind of sense when you know that ppl in the North African Sahel don't die from the heat. They die from thurst and hunger.

The team investigated heat-related mortality in the United States and found that people in most cities have, in essence, become immune to the impacts of high heat and humidity when it comes to mortality.
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I can't say anything about the reliability of the source though. Don't know them.
 
Actually Epic Im a nurse and my bro and sis are both docs. Its normal that some docs will complain along with som media and I hope they continue to do so. Its democratic and healthy to debate this. I just dont happen to agree here that widescale intervention was realistic. Its possible some elderly could have been placed in some military hospitals but in a country as large as France with its millions of geriatric population who was to gain access to this? As for ice everyone in France has a fridge.

I really just dont see how they could have avoided this... So now we will have ac placed in all institutions just in case in the next 100 years another modest heat wave happens? Or the gov is now expected to have massive ice manufacturing capabilities? How about reinforcing all roofs with metal girders in case a super snowstorm dumps 100 feet of snow like it might happen every century or 2 or 3... and how many more very rare occurrences that happen to affect a large part or even an entire country can we pary against?

Rare situations like this dont call for massive gov intervention to prevent but merely the community as a whole to help those who need help when such things happen.
 
pax said:
As for ice everyone in France has a fridge.
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:oops: wow I didnt realize the homeless and the poor all have access to fridges. Or maybe france just doesnt have any poor people and has no homeless. What a great country.
I really just dont see how they could have avoided this... So now we will have ac placed in all institutions just in case in the next 100 years another modest heat wave happens? Or the gov is now expected to have massive ice manufacturing capabilities? How about reinforcing all roofs with metal girders in case a super snowstorm dumps 100 feet of snow like it might happen every century or 2 or 3... and how many more very rare occurrences that happen to affect a large part or even an entire country can we pary against?

Rare situations like this dont call for massive gov intervention to prevent but merely the community as a whole to help those who need help when such things happen.
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the 2 or 3 doctors (one of them being the minister of health) all said in the articles that simple solutions from the govermnent could have avoided many of the deaths. Read carefully:
-open military hospitals: why? because the public hospitals were short on staff (alot of them on august vacations). Plus the more hospitals open the better.
-Recall from vacations medical personal.
-set up icing/cooling tents.

I guess since all the poor and homeless have access to fridges,....

I guess the three above mentioned actions is what you call a massive gov intervantion? Seems like common sense. But i guess im dumb, since i didnt realize how well off the poor and homeless are.

later,
 
The deaths in France (and the rest of Europe; odd that only France is being scrutinized here) were as preventable as the massive blackout in the USA.

There were people in the know who forecast this remote possibility but where ignored.
 
Willmeister said:
The deaths in France (and the rest of Europe; odd that only France is being scrutinized here) were as preventable as the massive blackout in the USA.

There were people in the know who forecast this remote possibility but where ignored.
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The difference is, the massive blackout in the U.S. didn't cost however many thousands of lives are being blamed on France's "lack of preparedness."

At last check, I think there is 1 death attributed to the black-out.

So, you pick which case is a more valid one for being "unprepared..."
 
It's perfectly valid to be unprepared for events that are very unlikely. It's another thing though to not take any actions once the problem arises.
 
Humus wrote:
It's perfectly valid to be unprepared for events that are very unlikely. It's another thing though to not take any actions once the problem arises.
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pax wrote:
So now we will have ac placed in all institutions just in case in the next 100 years another modest heat wave happens? Or the gov is now expected to have massive ice manufacturing capabilities? How about reinforcing all roofs with metal girders in case a super snowstorm dumps 100 feet of snow like it might happen every century or 2 or 3... and how many more very rare occurrences that happen to affect a large part or even an entire country can we pary against?

Rare situations like this dont call for massive gov intervention to prevent but merely the community as a whole to help those who need help when such things happen.
Click to expand...
/Sarcasm on....
Interesting. Nobody seems to pick up the idea that these heat waves (or unusual weather) are suppose to be more common, are going to happen more often, are an inevitable outcome, of what? Global warming of course. I mean, that's what the Kyoto treaty is all about, right? That's why the Europeans signed the treaty, right? Everybody saying that global warming is going to drastically effect the weater, right? I mean, really, the French should have seen this coming.... :rolleyes:
/Sarcasm off....
 
For several years now its not a heat wave that is being predicted by global warming studies but an ice age for Europe... if some deaths could have been prevented then for sure someone should be scrutinized... but from what Ive read the vast majority of those deaths were either imminent or unpreventable.

Still epic doesnt take away from the fact you are only being social democratic in your outlook and only on France (as if no one else died in other countries fomr this heat wave) as a meandering excuse to bash the French. Do you have any insecurities about the US operation in Iraq you need to assuage?
 
pax said:
Still epic doesnt take away from the fact you are only being social democratic in your outlook and only on France (as if no one else died in other countries fomr this heat wave) as a meandering excuse to bash the French. Do you have any insecurities about the US operation in Iraq you need to assuage?
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Hmm, interesting that i address your points but you dont mine.

First, I believe in a very limited govermnent. As limited as govermnent should be, it still has the responsibility to protect those with limited financial sources. If this makes me a socialist so be it. I will wear that badge with honor then. The old and the young (including the poor) should have some govermnent assistance since they need it.

Second, I dont think its alot to ask the govermnent to recall those who are on vacation to staff the hospitals. Doesnt it sound like common sense to make sure your hospitals arent understaffed?

Third, having some plan be executed during a crisis (where many people are dying) seems like what a responsible administration should do. It took them more than a week to open the military hospitals, why is that?

Fourth, please find me a highly regarded health proffesional in france who does not think the govermnent droped the ball.

On the question of the comparison to Iraq:
It seems like if France made a big deal about all the innocent civilians that were going to die, they should also be held to a higher standard when their own civilians are dropping dead. :)

BTW sadam, his sons, and his regime would have killed more people in the last 3 months than the US has done during the entire conflict. I remember many people in this forum who thought many hundreds of thousands to millions would die from the war.

I am quite proud of the US govermnent's handling in Iraq (there are a few places they could have done better), but are there any french people who are proud of their govermnent handling of the heat wave massacre.

later,
epic
 
if some deaths could have been prevented then for sure someone should be scrutinized...
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I did adress your points in that one sentence... But to wane ad nauseam on something like 3000 deaths in a country the size of France and where the vast majority were probably not be able to be saved makes little sense to me. Theres been press on both sides of the issue on those heat related deaths... Heck there were probably more cancer or heart disease deaths not related to heat during the same period.

Also Ive not seen any French press (I read quite a bit being french myself tho not everything on the Iraq campaign mind you so I could have missed something...) that would justify your belated sarcasm in comparison of the heat deaths vs the few deaths in the Iraq campign so far. Im just wondering about your motivation this late in the game. Not many still discuss the few thousands who died in the war last spring.

Ive only posted more than usual here because of the irony you seemed to be more to the left of me for once than I am usually but albeit for a pretty bad reason.

Its also pretty ironic that french press Ive read seem to be amazed at how few have died vs what was believed possible last fall. Concerns are still raised on things like a vietnam\lebanon like guerilla prolonged conflict and a possible terrorist retaliation against the west but I havent seen criticism of the 3000 deaths that liberated the country from a terrible dictator. In fact most post war press in France has been pretty favorable to the US...

So: First I agree; 2nd I agree but its not the govs job its the hospitals; 3rd it wasnt seen as a crisis by many as the heat wasnt that bad so a modest tho slightly late response is understandable however of course any problem should be dealt with at the level of a problem it really is; 4rth you'll be hard pressed to find any doctor in any country who thinks gov does enough anywhere in regards to health. Heck even the country that spends the most on health care (not in the right places if you ask me but still) saw its doctors unionize themselves a few years ago (USA)...

BTW France base wage is 12$ an hour equivalent and if they dont work they have access to huge social infrastructure compared to us and here welfare recipients all have fridges... There was no water or power shortage and yes fridges are pretty much like toasters in that country... the measures you mentionned might have saved a few people but they could likely have killed a few too from simply moving them from the nursing homes where most of those who died probably would have come from... France isnt third world you know.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/fr.html
 
my french isnt very good, so i had to have google translate alot of le monde for me. They certainly havent been kind to the govermnent. So what french press is it that your referring to.

later,
 
epicstruggle said:
I am quite proud of the US govermnent's handling in Iraq (there are a few places they could have done better), but are there any french people who are proud of their govermnent handling of the heat wave massacre.

later,
epic
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What exactly was your intention when creating this topic? Is this some retaliation towards France by saying, "You're government sucks and can't save its people, mine can...! Haha, neener!" And you're condescending sarcasm that you place in your post isn't really helping either, more annoying than anything else. Bottom line is, the US's issue with Iraq and France's trouble with heat are more important than the childish "My country is cooler (heh heh) than your country!" bickering you seem to want to reduce it to.
 
dksuiko said:
epicstruggle said:
I am quite proud of the US govermnent's handling in Iraq (there are a few places they could have done better), but are there any french people who are proud of their govermnent handling of the heat wave massacre.

later,
epic
Click to expand...

What exactly was your intention when creating this topic? Is this some retaliation towards France by saying, "You're government sucks and can't save its people, mine can...! Haha, neener!" And you're condescending sarcasm that you place in your post isn't really helping either, more annoying than anything else. Bottom line is, the US's issue with Iraq and France's trouble with heat are more important than the childish "My country is cooler (heh heh) than your country!" bickering you seem to want to reduce it to.
Click to expand...

A reporter asks George W. Bush , in an alternate universe where he is prime minister of France, "What are your thoughts on how to best solve the heat wave crisis here in France?".

George W. Bush responds, "The heat? Bring it on!".

Bring it on!
 
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