Which came first - the chicken or the egg? *spawn*

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The hen&egg thing is actually explainable through the evolution theory quite easily.
Evolution happens trough mutations beteeen parent and child. The being that came before the hen put out an egg with a mutation that parted from its genetic code. That egg already had the genetic code of a hen.

Therefore the hen's egg came first.

Now, people who chose that option: be kind and choose one of the other two.
 
The hen&egg thing is actually explainable through the evolution theory quite easily.
Evolution happens trough mutations beteeen parent and child. The being that came before the hen put out an egg with a mutation that parted from its genetic code. That egg already had the genetic code of a hen.

Therefore the hen's egg came first.

Now, people who chose that option: be kind and choose one of the other two.

Thank you for explaining that to me. This thread has proven useful for something !
 
The hen&egg thing is actually explainable through the evolution theory quite easily.
Evolution happens trough mutations beteeen parent and child. The being that came before the hen put out an egg with a mutation that parted from its genetic code. That egg already had the genetic code of a hen.

Therefore the hen's egg came first.
More directly, dinosaurs were laying eggs long before chickens existed! Eggs predate chickens by hundreds of millions of years - you don't need to look to the immediate genetic descendent (which as yet hasn't been proven, that an evolutionary mutation leads to a new species, so it's doubtful your situation can even arise where one species produces an egg containing another species).
 
More directly, dinosaurs were laying eggs long before chickens existed! Eggs predate chickens by hundreds of millions of years - you don't need to look to the immediate genetic descendent (which as yet hasn't been proven, that an evolutionary mutation leads to a new species, so it's doubtful your situation can even arise where one species produces an egg containing another species).

I think the usual question pertains to the chicken's egg and not any egg..
 
The chicken comes before the egg it lays. The egg came before the chicken it was born from. As you say, the first chicken had to come from the egg that bore it, so its egg came first, but such an obvious species transition as one creature lays an egg that creates another species entirely does not, AFAIK, exist. If we want to get serious about this discussion (why?!), there's no such thing as a non-chicken laying a chicken egg, in which case the chicken came first because the egg it was born from was a proto-chicken egg that harboured a new species. The constitution of that proto-chicken egg is likely different from the constitution of the egg lain by the new chicken. Which, incidentally, is the first and only one of its species, created by a chance mutation, and it won't find a mate and the species will die in one generation, if random mutations are to be believed as the only source of evolution. ;) Hence, being the only chicken that never gets fertilised, it won't produce any eggs.
 
such an obvious species transition as one creature lays an egg that creates another species entirely does not, AFAIK, exist.
That's exactly what happened, and what happened with all species so far.
One being gives birth to another being with one or more mutated genes, which may or may not prevail over its contemporaries with the "old genes" through natural selection.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution


The answer is crystal clear:
- A non-chicken gave birth to a chicken egg. Hence, the chicken's egg came first. The first chicken came after that egg hatched.
 
That's exactly what happened, and what happened with all species so far.
One being gives birth to another being with one or more mutated genes, which may or may not prevail over its contemporaries with the "old genes" through natural selection.
That's not a new species but a variation in the current species. You are not a new species from your parents! You are homo sapiens sapiens, and your parents were homo sapiens sapiens, and their parents, and their parents. In simple terms, a species is defined as a lifeform (genetic pattern) that can only procreate with other lifeforms of the same pattern. Differences within that genetic pattern that are reproductively compatible is variation of the same species. A chihuahua can reproduce with a bull mastif because they are the same species and they'll produce offspring that are a mix of the two progenitor's traits, who can mate with other dogs. A chihuahua cannot reproduce with a rabbit because they are different species. You don't get offspring from within a species that are biologically incompatible and hence a new species. The amount of genetic variation needed to create a new species is considerably more than a single step of meiosis and recombination can provide.

Ergo, whatever laid the chicken was a chicken.
 
If I had been born with sizeable mutations that made me substantially different from my parents (e.g. psychokinetic abilities or 3 eyes and 3 nostrils) then yes, I could have been regarded as a different species.
And if these new genes were dominant, then my offspring would be of the same species as me and not homo sapiens sapiens.

You're implying that a new species is only born out of cross-breeding between two different - but sexually compatible - species. That's not how it works with the evolution theory.

Really, unless you're trying to discredit the currently accepted form of evolution theory (Mendel's), this discussion isn't worth the time and energy IMHO:

http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/question85.htm
http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/problem-solved-the-egg-came-first-6910803/
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/TECH/science/05/26/chicken.egg/
 
1) You won't be that substantially different from your parents. That level of change doesn't happen in a single generation. Plus, if you can interbreed with other humans, you'd still be the same species, just with variations. Contrary to popular opinion, red heads are the same species as everyone else... ;) 3 eyed people are still human, as are 12 toed people.

2) The definition of a species isn't exact as it exist as both a scientific term for geneticists and a taxonomic term for biologists. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Species_problem. I'm using the standard biological definition applied to higher level organisms.

You're implying that a new species is only born out of cross-breeding between two different - but sexually compatible - species. That's not how it works with the evolution theory.
No I'm not. The creation of a new species from its precursors is an ongoing process of genetic change across thousands of generations. Two biologically compatible creatures of the same species give rise to progeny of the same species with whatever variations. You never get a new species from a single generation of sexual (or asexual) reproduction.

There are peculiar hybrids but these aren't, by and large, stable genetic species and are the product of unnatural interactions between species that wouldn't find themselves in a position to mate without human intervention. Too much genetic diversity between parents leads to faulty offspring even if conception is bioloigcally possible. Even between very similar creatures of the same genus (taxonomy), the offspring are non-viable or sterile creating an evolutionary dead-end. Hence, a new species from two parents is basically impossible, because you can't get that much diversity and still have a stable new lifeform. And this is perhaps the problem, because we think of a species as a distinctly different creature, yet it's more a degree of compatibility.

Ergo, if you have a chicken born from an egg, it's parents were chickens. And their parents were chickens. And their parents were chickens. Going back and back, each generation slightly different. If you sample the chicken from 1,000,000 years earlier, you may have a species that is biologically incompatible with present-day chickens. That's an easy distinction to make. Quite where one species ends and a new one begins from it is hard to say. The only certainty is that, as I've said, every parent produces progeny of the same species, and every offspring comes from the same species. The creature that laid the chicken egg was a chicken. The first eggs came from species that weren't chickens.

Now you could trace back every generation to find the first generation that isn't biologically compatible with the current chicken, and conclude that marks the end of that species and its offspring, the first to be biologically compatible with the contemporary species, to be the first chicken. Then you'd have your argument, the egg came before the chicken. However, what you'll likely find (and this is of course impossible to scientifically test because we can't try mating thousand year old species with current species, but interactions between higher-level genetic variances certainly points to this) is that older generations of the current species would have varying compatibility, with offspring of different health and sexual viability. There won't be a nice distinction between species like there is consoles. The notion of species becomes one of human perception of an infinite genetic diversity, hampered by legacy thought processes constrained by a language of naivity built around the high-level perceptions of the people who created that language. Which is what leads to the notion of a species being defined as reproductively isolated, which offspring aren't.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_junglefowl
The other three members of the genus—Sri Lanka junglefowl (Gallus lafayetii), grey junglefowl (Gallus sonneratii), and the green junglefowl (Gallus varius)—do not usually produce fertile hybrids with the red junglefowl, suggesting that it is the sole ancestor of the domestic chicken. However, recent research has revealed the absence of the yellow skin gene in the wild red junglefowl found in domestic birds, which suggests hybridisation with the grey junglefowl during the domestication of the species.[2] A culturally significant hybrid between the red junglefowl and the green junglefowl in Indonesia is known as the bekisar.

So a chicken is a subspecies of the red junglefowl. It's called a chicken, because it has genetic traits that made us give it a different name. These traits come from man made hybridization and domestication. The first egg from that process which had all the traits necessary for us to call it a chicken and select them for breeding... was the first chicken egg.

We give names based on genetic traits, logically it's impossible for the chicken to come first.
 
1) You won't be that substantially different from your parents. That level of change doesn't happen in a single generation. Plus, if you can interbreed with other humans, you'd still be the same species, just with variations. Contrary to popular opinion, red heads are the same species as everyone else... ;) 3 eyed people are still human, as are 12 toed people.
Wut?!
We came from monkeys, gingers came from soulless demons! We all know that!

Ergo, if you have a chicken born from an egg, it's parents were chickens. And their parents were chickens. And their parents were chickens. Going back and back, each generation slightly different. If you sample the chicken from 1,000,000 years earlier, you may have a species that is biologically incompatible with present-day chickens.
It doesn't matter how far back you go or what definition you use. You can use either definition/theory of what to call a chicken, or what restrictions you impose, it's still the egg that comes first.

If you define chicken as a fixed gene pool (or a gene pool with limited variables), then at a certain point in time there was a being who didn't respect those restrictions and gave birth to an egg with a being who did. The egg came first.
If you define chicken as a being able to mate with a chicken, then at a certain point there was a being unable to mate with a chicken who laid an egg with a being who was able to. The egg came first.


You cannot argue that the chicken came first without breaking the fundamentals of the evolution theory, which is that our genetic code remains the same between conception and death. Save for extreme chemical and/or radioactive conditioning, which was only possible just lately through human hands.
 
Was it the egg or the the chicken inside the egg..........

Obviously we were selected by Noah to go on a 3 hour tour and if not for courage of the fearless crew the chicken would be lost...

....oh and yes Ginger is a ginger but also a chick.
 
If you define chicken as a fixed gene pool (or a gene pool with limited variables), then at a certain point in time there was a being who didn't respect those restrictions and gave birth to an egg with a being who did. The egg came first.
I know. I said that. The egg predates chickens by millions of years across lots of species.

If you define chicken as a being able to mate with a chicken, then at a certain point there was a being unable to mate with a chicken who laid an egg with a being who was able to.
I already covered that argument.

You cannot argue that the chicken came first without breaking the fundamentals of the evolution theory, which is that our genetic code remains the same between conception and death. Save for extreme chemical and/or radioactive conditioning, which was only possible just lately through human hands.
I didn't argue the chicken came first. I stated that the egg came first. What I've disagreed with you on is your view that there was a little protochicken that laid an egg that contained a chicken as a brand new species that was incapable of mating with protochicken. Evolution doesn't work that way.

Any creature you call a chicken, its parents are the same species. The definition of 'chicken' then becomes 'every creature that shares the same DNA as this one I call a chicken, or is such a similar match of DNA that it can mate with this chicken if of suitable gender'. That definition means every few (thousand) generations either side of that one example of a chicken is also a chicken.

The egg came first, because it comes from species clearly not chickens which gradually, over many, many tiny changes between generations, inched their way towards becoming a phenotype (and genotype if you're approaching this genetically) that we call a chicken.
 
I didn't argue the chicken came first. I stated that the egg came first. What I've disagreed with you on is your view that there was a little protochicken that laid an egg that contained a chicken as a brand new species that was incapable of mating with protochicken. Evolution doesn't work that way.
I don't think I ever claimed that the chicken was unable to mate with the protochicken. They had better be sexually compatible, otherwise the chicken would have a huge problem with spreading its genes.

Any creature you call a chicken, its parents are the same species.
(...)
The egg came first, because it comes from species clearly not chickens which gradually, over many, many tiny changes between generations, inched their way towards becoming a phenotype (and genotype if you're approaching this genetically) that we call a chicken.
This is where we disagree. You're saying we cannot establish a threshold, a limit where we can or cannot call chicken to a being. I'm convinced that we can.
 
All this talk about chickens is making me hungry.
 
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This is where we disagree. You're saying we cannot establish a threshold, a limit where we can or cannot call chicken to a being. I'm convinced that we can.
Take your example. We have Protochicken, Generation 1. This is followed by Protochicken Generation 2. G2 can breed with G1 so is the same species. Lots of generations later, we have G1000 which has somewhere along the line turned into Chicken. If G999 can breed with G1000, we can call that Chicken too. If G998 can mate with G1000, it too is Chicken. We can go back until we find a generation that can't mate with G1000. Let's say G500 cannot mate with G1000, so it's not chicken. And G501 can, so it is chicken. That appears to be how you are determining the species threshold.

So, we identify G501 as the very first chicken. However, G501 can mate with G500, because every generation of offspring can mate with its previous generation. You can have many different generations within a population and they are all biologically compatible. If that wasn't the case, the first of any species would die out because it wouldn't find a mate! So if G501 is a chicken because it can mate with G1000, and G500 can mate with G501, then G500 must also be a chicken...

The problem is we're trying to define absolutely transitions that don't exist in nature. There's not really such a thing as a discrete chicken. There's only a continuously varying genetic strain*. We have sampled that strain at this point in time via our human perceptions and called that sample a chicken, but it's in reality one time slice of the every-changing DNA design. There's no particular DNA pattern that defines 'chicken'. Now you could create a pattern for that, and decide anything that deviates too much from that pattern isn't a chicken. That'd be another way to categorise life, but it's not terribly practical and completely arbitrary. The current system looks into biological compatibility, and that is a continuous variance.

It's basically the same as trying to categorise the colours in this:
Image2.png

We can clearly separate Red, Orange, Yellow, etc., but where red ends and orange begins? If each colour represents a species from the same ancestor, there's no real threshold. Every iteration of the DNA can breed with its neighbours, which means it is the same species as its neighbours, even if it's a different species to that from further away.

* There are some remarkable stable genetic strains out there that refuse to vary over time and aren't evolving.
 
The hen&egg thing is actually explainable through the evolution theory quite easily.
Evolution happens trough mutations beteeen parent and child. The being that came before the hen put out an egg with a mutation that parted from its genetic code. That egg already had the genetic code of a hen.

Therefore the hen's egg came first.

Now, people who chose that option: be kind and choose one of the other two.

The first hen must of thought my deity what is this crap! Then the roster said I guess I am not the father...

What forum did I step into today?
 
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