When political polarization goes too far

[Sabastian]

the invasion was wrong,

I don't know that. Was Afghanistan wrong as well?

I understand the circumstances are totally different but Afghanistan alone would not send any sort of message to the governments of the region whom were supporting terrorist groups namely Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Palestine and Libya. It drove home the idea that the US is not a terrorist punching bag as well. Iraq was far more important move in these terms. Strategically speaking the removal of Saddam is invaluable in the long term. Meanwhile the people of Iraq will finally get a crack at living in a country with a just government. That does not mean that they are guaranteed anything, only that they now have a chance. It is up to the people of Iraq once the US pulls out to make the right decisions.

 

[Druga Runda]

the invasion was wrong,

I don't know that. Was Afghanistan wrong as well?

I understand the circumstances are totally different but Afghanistan alone would not send any sort of message to the governments of the region whom were supporting terrorist groups namely Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Palestine and Libya. It drove home the idea that the US is not a terrorist punching bag as well. Iraq was far more important move in these terms. Strategically speaking the removal of Saddam is invaluable in the long term. Meanwhile the people of Iraq will finally get a crack at living in a country with a just government. That does not mean that they are guaranteed anything, only that they now have a chance. It is up to the people of Iraq once the US pulls out to make the right decisions.

I actually supported Afghanistan.

Reasons for it:
Aiding a side in civil war. that was overthrown previously, taking out the known terrorist breeding grounds, taking out a really repressive regime, chance at capturing Osama and the leaders (which failed), chance to rebuild the country and show the rest of the region that US/west have good intentions and if they support reforms, and not the terrorists that life can be better for them as well + having a good/strong growin, prospering state in the neighbouring area that is the "us/western" base would certainy be enough to send a strong enough message for the regimes in the region.

However what we do is
1. kick taliban ass...
2. try to nail Osama and the terrorists for a while
3. stop in Afghanistan, leaving the country in the pre-taliban mess, and leave it to international force to "peacekeep" Kabul.
4. invent WOMD
5. present is as a threat
6. try to make up the link between Saddam and AlQuaeda
7. ignore UN, weakening the institution more than the Russians or Chinese ever did, spy on allies, than go to war with Iraq
8 kill 10000 collateral damage, plus countless injured etc...
9. replace Saddam with a governing council in a religiously/ethnically divided country
10 - I hope that we don't cause a civil war on top of it all

--- and that was short as of why it was wrong. Instead of choosing to do good where we would be welcome, we (US/UK) decided to do an invasion. As if Osama and Bush made a deal - after all they are family friends - and most certainly Osamas hope for uniting all Muslims in a Jihad against the west is now closer than ever.(just wait until Pakistani overthrow Musharaff and join in the anti-west party with their nukes)

 

[antlers]

The Bush Justice department has said publicly and repeatedly that the executive branch can hold an American citizen indefinitely, incommunicado with no access to counsel or any sort of judicial review, whenever they feel they have a good reason. If that isn't stamping on American values, I don't know what is. Just holding that position should be enough to get Bush impeached. He swore to uphold the Constitution, not to regard it as a quaint set of desirable guidelines.

There was also no honor in Bush's service in the National Guard. During the draft era, the Guard had very little chance of seeing combat (compared to the Guard today). Bush's unit was designed to defend the U.S. against an attack by Soviet bombers that were already obsolete at the start of his service. It was filled with the children of the Texas elite, who had pulled strings to get them in there. If, through the good graces of your Congressman father, you jump a years-long waiting list to get into a unit that shields you from any inconvenient military obligation, I would think that the honorable thing to do would be to serve to the best of your ability--not to take advantage of the lax oversight to duck out of what little responsibility you had for months on end.

 

[RussSchultz]

The air national guard units around the nation regularly saw service. It wasn't a good place "dodge" the draft, especially when you could go to college and get an exemption that way.

 

[Silent_One]

The Bush Justice department has said publicly and repeatedly that the executive branch can hold an American citizen indefinitely, incommunicado with no access to counsel or any sort of judicial review, whenever they feel they have a good reason.

Do you have a actual quote somewhere? I'd like to read it.

Just holding that position should be enough to get Bush impeached. He swore to uphold the Constitution, not to regard it as a quaint set of desirable guidelines.

well if you look in US history you will see that habeas corpus has been suspended before durning times of war or national emergencys. Again, like I said to John, and he generally agreed, we "don't think they're now free to run hog-wild over the American people."

 

[John Reynolds]

The air national guard units around the nation regularly saw service. It wasn't a good place "dodge" the draft, especially when you could go to college and get an exemption that way.

Not all units are available to be activated. Just depends on their mission.

 

[Ty]

The air national guard units around the nation regularly saw service. It wasn't a good place "dodge" the draft, especially when you could go to college and get an exemption that way.

Not all units are available to be activated. Just depends on their mission.

And you'd actually have to show up in the first place.

Curious, was his unit ever activated? What and where did they serve?

 

[Natoma]

Some interesting statistics: http://vfw1079.homestead.com/vw.html

Of the 9 million men and women who served during the vietnam era, 2.6 Million went to Vietnam itself. Of that 2.6 Million, only 6,140 were national guard.

Sounds like a good place to go if you feel you have no choice to serve, and want to hedge your bets on avoiding combat. But that's just me.

[EDIT]It should be noted that Bush receieved the lowest score possible (25) on his pilot's aptitude test, and yet he was sworn in the very day he applied for the guard. Why? His father happened to be Houston's congressman at the time, and was apparently able to sway the Houston unit's leadership to accept his son immediately.

It should also be noted that Dubya was 12 days away from losing his student deferrment since he graduated in 1968. So this was the next best thing.

Was the timing coincidence? Unlikely.[/EDIT]

Fortunately for me, I'll never have to serve in the armed forces or provide an "excuse" or "explanation" if I ran for any political office, even if a draft were re-established. Gotta love don't ask don't tell.

 

[kyleb]

And how is the CIA and FBI bound by constraints? Why after one Reichstag-like event, albeit a truly horrific one that sadly introduced America to what other western countries have been dealing with for decades (I was within miles of a terrorist attack, a roadside car bomb, in Germany back in '86), suddenly justify empowering intelligence agencies of the federal government with never-before-granted powers? I'm not trying to be an alarmist, but the amateur historian in me says those powers will inevitably be abused. It just seems to set a dangerous precedent, especially if further terrorist attacks do occur.

so you were in Germany in the mid '80s; i am guessing that you also got to walk though Frankfurt airport passing by countless solders brandishing automatic rifles, eh? possibly when the place was covered in plastic sheeting to keep down the dust from the bombings? i was a only about 10 years old at the time, but remember it all very clearly and i am glad i got to see how real freedom loving people protect their liberty with integrity and a strong defence. having learned the lessons they did in ww2 they were not so quick to lash out in aggression, unfortunately those lessons seem to be lost on many Americans.

 

[Silent_One]

kyleb wrote:

i was a only about 10 years old at the time, but remember it all very clearly and i am glad i got to see how real freedom loving people protect their liberty with integrity and a strong defence. having learned the lessons they did in ww2 they were not so quick to lash out in aggression, unfortunately those lessons seem to be lost on many Americans.

Sadly some people have yet to learn that Al Queda is a completely different terrorist organization than the groups Europe had to deal with in the 70's and 80's. In general those groups had political goals and demands and that could be negotiated with in one form or another. France even had a amnesty day for some terror groups. Al queda, on the other hand, are only interested in the destruction and callapse of Western Civilization (among other goals). Thus, there is no room for negotiations, no demands, no room for compromise. It is, unfortunately, kill them before they kill you.

 

[John Reynolds]

so you were in Germany in the mid '80s; i am guessing that you also got to walk though Frankfurt airport passing by countless solders brandishing automatic rifles, eh? possibly when the place was covered in plastic sheeting to keep down the dust from the bombings? i was a only about 10 years old at the time, but remember it all very clearly and i am glad i got to see how real freedom loving people protect their liberty with integrity and a strong defence. having learned the lessons they did in ww2 they were not so quick to lash out in aggression, unfortunately those lessons seem to be lost on many Americans.

I was 21 at the time and remember sitting in the Zurich airport. We'd been waiting for over an hour so I'd slung a leg over the arm of the small couch my girlfriend and I were sitting on. I soon felt this tapping on my shoe, looked up, and saw a security guard with a machine gun, and he'd been tapping my foot with the barrel of his gun. Kinda scary to me at the time. And needless to say, I straightened my leg out rather quickly.

Edit: Oh, and that terrorist attack in Germany. . .we were close enough to hear it and feel the ground shake from the blast. Scary stuff.