Sony gaming exec: Broadband prices need to drop

I'm ok with these "micro payments" as long as the game I purchase from the shop can be played through as before without paying for much extra downloadable content.

Examples of the 'I don't buy it' cases:
- Buy weapons, potions, vehicles, maps, characters etc., stuff that is integral to the game play experience, during the game with real money.
- Pay for the 'Continues' in for example fighting games with real money.
- Buy extra levels for a multiplayer (UT level based style) fps game, if the game from the shop includes only a couple of levels.
- Pay for game time in mmorpg games by the minute.

Examples of the 'I'd buy it' cases
+ Buy slightly modified and 'fun' weapons, vehicles, clothes, characters etc. after the game is completed to increase replayability.
+ Pay for entering prize based tournaments in fighting games, fps etc..
+ Buy extra levels for a multiplayer fps if the main game already includes plenty of levels.
+ Buy game hints and cheats
 
Magnum PI said:
this doesn't differ much from what was said in UK by moore about xbox live, except sony doesn't want the gamer to pay a monthly fee.

with xbox you pay monthly fees and you'll pay for the content.
with sony you only pay for the content.
There is an annual subscription for xbox live, btw, and it is cheaper than monthly over the 12 year period. It's $50 USD That's $4.17 per month.
It's the whole service that makes it worth that much.


Well, I've only tried it for 2 months, but that was probably the best online gaming I've ever had, really. No cheating....little lag...fool proof match-making for pretty much all online multiplayer games....voice chat (haven't personally tried this, but it's still a bonus :D).There's a few more nice features I found when I was using the trial offer. It's certainly more standardized than Sony's online effort for PS2. I'd say the fee is worth it.

Regarding paying for extra content... well if you look at the recent PGR2 download... I'd say it was worth it.

I suppose MechAssault is the perfect example of how things can be done... they released 13 downloads for free... then they started charging for new stuff. That's about a year's worth of extra content, and then they started charging for stuff. I'm sure that console devs have better things to do in a year like make a new game than to sit around doing stuff for free all the time. ;)

Then there's the upcoming Ninja Gaiden content *free*.

I think I'll wait and then see how Sony approaches next gen online *precisely* before making judgements, but it seems like they're just re-doing what they are doing with the PS2 (letting the game devs choose whether or not to charge).
 
cthellis42 said:
I could "see" that too, Jaws, and frankly the prospect is frightening. :oops:

I can't see it gaining much ground, though. The reason arcades started to die was because home machines could get close to their quality, while offering a ton more convenience and saving a lot of money. Especially potent since the consoles were already purchased for all the games that just don't fit an arcade's style--anything else could just get rolled in.

If companies start trying to pull bullshit like that, I mainly see people sliding on over to their direct competitors who don't. Even if the price is "not much" (and heck, could be even cheaper for some folk depending on their gaming habits), people just don't want to HAVE to be connected and KNOW they're shelling out money every time they start up a game.

Developers seeking some extra cash to cover board-building and other game additions is one thing, but for game PLAYING would be a crock. Most things that started out charging usage fees have invariably gone to universal charges... The tendency is toward simplicity for the consumers, not the other way around; it's much easier to lead consumers down a slope than get them to climb a ladder.

For new tech and services it's one thing, but videogaming went down that road long ago. There ARE things people are willing to pay for, but to cover a complete paradigm shift like that would require all the major players to decide on it at once and stick by it. I don't see them cooperating all that well--they're all quite happy to steal people from the others. ;)

The mobile phone industry has several payment models from "pay as you go" to "fixed" mothly charges for a service. Despite confusing the hell out of some users, casual users prefer 'the pay as you go" model. This might suit an online rental market or casual gamers who only buy the occasional game a year and never finish them!

I try to buy AAA quality games and barely have time to finish theme these days! But there are games I'd like to sample but cannot be bothered to borrow/rent/buy mag demos etc...The quality AAA games I would definitely like to have a hard copy for my collection (like treasured DVDs) but I know I'm missing out on some decent titles due to lack of time...

I'm sure Sony still has a hidden agenda though...
 
We already have a large "try before you buy" system in place now, what with Blockbuster and all other renting options, and we already have the ability for people to turn unwanted games back into more gaming with the secondhand market... We'll see options changing over time, but we certainly won't see public acceptance of "pay to play." (And I certainly hope we don't ever see a major push for it, too, since you'd start seeing games get designed in a way to make you put in more cash, not as a matter of making the gaming experience the best it can be.)

Perhaps when broadband becomes amazingly fast and entirely intrinsic to life you'll get machines and publishers taking advantage of that--to get around piracy and have the most personal control--but at that point there's also no physical purchases that have to go on, and we'd STILL see the eventual trend to a "subscription" system regardless. (Just look at the way ISP's went, and cell phones, et al.)
 
Jov,

Also Q, Live is a service as you stated, but the topic here is more content centric (thus the iTune example with songs), thus some of your argument seems weak.

Music is a cmpletly different kettle of fish. on console you need a consistent way to get that content, or some service that provides the abiltiy. So I think service oriented is the way to go. I can't see it being done in a similar fashion to PC at all (grab your data fomr anywhere). Sony still needs to put together a service that standardizes the way this is handled from game to game.

Also keep in mind that sony's route for online (more open) has only lead to many of the games being pay for play individually in japan. If I had to pick between ways to do it, I'd pick the xbox live model as it makes more sense fomr a user point of view.

Also to those that are saying pay as you go is popular among casual cell users, I'd argue that prepaid air time is the most popular used method of payment for cell phones by casuals. Why? becuase it's impossible to track the micro trasnactions for each call until you get your bill. Ever know somebody that got their bill and said, "Omigod, I had no idea I used this much air time!!"
 
Qroach said:
Music is a cmpletly different kettle of fish. on console you need a consistent way to get that content, or some service that provides the abiltiy. So I think service oriented is the way to go. I can't see it being done in a similar fashion to PC at all (grab your data fomr anywhere). Sony still needs to put together a service that standardizes the way this is handled from game to game.

Are you arguing against Sony's microtransaction due to a lack of consistency? I remember reading in this forum Sony have plans to create a consistent framework for devs to provide their Online content/service?

Qroach said:
Also keep in mind that sony's route for online (more open) has only lead to many of the games being pay for play individually in japan. If I had to pick between ways to do it, I'd pick the xbox live model as it makes more sense fomr a user point of view.

Sure there are pros and cons for both model, but with LIVE, devs are more restricted in their options. Whereas with Sony's open-ended model, if a dev/publisher is innovative, it allows them to explore and in IMO a more competitive model.

At the end of the day its the perceived value gamers gets from the two Online models, and to a large extent a personal preference.
 
Are you arguing against Sony's microtransaction due to a lack of consistency? I remember reading in this forum Sony have plans to create a consistent framework for devs to provide their Online content/service?

I was going to argue that but didn't boher to go any further. let me put it this way, music fits nicely in tiny bit sizes, but games simply don't. What sony mentioned as micro transactions really wasn't micro transactions. He only mentioned paying for addons, which you can already do on xbox live, however those aren't micro transactions. Like I said to vince, lookat yur cell phone bill and you'll see mciro transactions... That level of payment is far too difficult to implement and it requires one of the most detailed/capable billing systems in the world. Developers aren't goign to pay for this billing system and neither are teh publishers. You know what somehting like that costs? 1 million doallars.

The rest of my comment related to having a framework for a console service was aimed at those (like yourself) that don't think the topic is more cotent centric. Well is it if people go the pay only as much as you play.

Sure there are pros and cons for both model, but with LIVE, devs are more restricted in their options. Whereas with Sony's open-ended model, if a dev/publisher is innovative, it allows them to explore and in IMO a more competitive model.

Restrictive in what way exactly? I'd be curious to know if you've done your research on this. ;)

At the end of the day its the perceived value gamers gets from the two Online models, and to a large extent a personal preference.

Well that's the thing, sony's current model isn't working and they will need to provide a frameworkd and way for developers to hook into thie rown billing system in the future for real microtransactions. Right there that will make things more restictive by nature.
 
Qroach said:
Sure there are pros and cons for both model, but with LIVE, devs are more restricted in their options. Whereas with Sony's open-ended model, if a dev/publisher is innovative, it allows them to explore and in IMO a more competitive model.
Restrictive in what way exactly? I'd be curious to know if you've done your research on this. ;)
I'm not sure I'd immediately label it "more innovative," but Live makes conformity demands on the publishers as well as server ownership restrictions (which seems to have been the sticking point for EA who browbeat Microsoft into relenting on that position, so they may have different policies now), while I don't think Sony's is anything over the usual expectations for platform launch. Since I tend to like the online community that's built around the PC's format, I lean towards Sony's system because it resembles that entirely.

Obviously people have different preferences, and we can certainly draw similarities from Xbox Live to Apple's initial software-design demands (because as a system it would all look the same, act the same, and confuse users less by letting them know what to expect) which was no BAD thing for us. Though with both, we also don't know how much extra strain or restrictions it put on developers. I tend to think Microsoft's demands have been put mainly on developers up to this point, since they're pushing XNA as a real boon.

NEITHER method restricts Microsoft nor Sony from doing what they can to ease development for other studios nor make the experience better for the consumers. Microsoft has to push to keep themselves looking better than the competition because they are charging a subscription, but it behooves Sony to take the same convenience steps because they don't, and if they can roll them in without charging a subscription they get more people using their services, which makes for more online players able to play any games that support it, which makes for more developers looking at the larger playerbase and supporting multi-player to tap those users and make their titles more appealing...

One of Microsoft's main points when Live was coming about was saying "they let any developer charge you whatever they want![/i]" though as we have seen, extra subscription charges and extra content charges won't be out of line for Live as well. Meanwhile, I don't have too much to fear because PC's have always had that system in place, for years, and yet the only times we see really game charging are for the MMO's while will need it regardless.

Meanwhile Microsoft will keep enhancing Live to stay appealing at cost, and Sony will have to keep enhancing their services to not shrink in its own appeal, so... At least for now, its still the consumers (and likely the developers and MS/S take more development and connectivity costs onto themselves) who win out. And it's still us who make our own choices.
 
I agree with all that you wrote except one sticking point.

(which seems to have been the sticking point for EA who browbeat Microsoft into relenting on that position, so they may have different policies now)

EA didn't rreally have a problem with MS or thier service, they signed an exclusive online deal with sony that was only up early this year (or late last year) and during that itme they couldn't support xbox live even if they said they were. IMO they basically used that as a way to bargain to get some better deal with microsoft.
 
There were a whole lot of comments being said about the whole situation, so I think it's safe to say we won't even "know" what it was all about either. (And with deals this large, it's usually never "all about" one thing anyway.) But EA has made public statements about wanting "both control over its content and money for gamers to play its titles" (and others like " We have no plans for online games with Xbox because we couldn't agree on the terms") and so far as I know Microsoft has backslid on a few points and thrown a bone with Live Server Protocol--which the ESPN titles are jumping on, and I'm sure made EA a lot happier--and are likely finding they'll have to more sway to the large publisher demands in the future as well. (In that way, "wanting to do their own things" many times involves the innovation we want, rather than "making sure they all do at least X, Y, and Z.)

EA signed the agreement in part because of their complaints regarding Microsoft's Live model, so I see it as the tool they were using to get MS to change that model at least for them. (And hey, if they make more money off Sony in the meanwhile...? win/win) Not to mention I don't think the exclusivity deal extended past the EA Sports titles...? (there's some ambiguity on that point, but I think it was just Sports) ...but EA has kept their other games off Live as well. I see the deal coming about as a result OF their dissatisfaction, since that's the best way they have at showing Microsoft they mean business. (And hey, EA has the weight to throw around--they'd want to get things "square" on their books while the online sector is still in its formative stages.)
 
Qroach said:
Restrictive in what way exactly? I'd be curious to know if you've done your research on this. ;)

To be honest, I've not researched various particular Live restrictions and the required compliant. How I saw the restrictiveness was devs or more particularly publishers can not deal direct with their consumer base. For example, if say Square Enix released a number of Online RPGs (or MMOs), they can cut a deal/discount to players subscribed to 2 or more to make it’s Online play more attractive and increase gamer loyalty. Or even a combination of Online and offline titles for this matter.

This example can be applied to Sega or EA's many sports titles as well. Will MS allow such pricing flexibility?

As mentioned in my previous post, there are pros and cons from both models. Sony’s open yet unregulated approach versus MS’s more uniform but tighter control.
 
... and so far as I know Microsoft has backslid on a few points and thrown a bone with Live Server Protocol--which the ESPN titles are jumping on, and I'm sure made EA a lot happier--

The live server protocol was a natural progression for xbox live or any closed service for that matter. LSP came from the fact MS wanted to extend xbox live support to the PC world in order to allow more MMORPG"S from PC to be converted to xbox. That's really the only way we'd see more 3rd party MMO games on xbox. I don't think any of this came from EA saying they wouldn't aupport live, as I'm certain all of EA's games won't use the live server protocol (sports) or collect any user information themselves.


Not to mention I don't think the exclusivity deal extended past the EA Sports titles...? (there's some ambiguity on that point, but I think it was just Sports)... but EA has kept their other games off Live as well.

From what I've heard and read, the deal with sony extended to all games from EA, including sports. So far however EA has only commited to bring ing sports titles to xbox live.

Part of the reason I don't think any of the issues EA really had were true, is partly becuase I knew many people that were sitting there saying we should support Xbox live, and why aren't we. Second I'm certain EA won't bother to collect user information as it was never impossible for xbox live to allow a publisher to do this in teh first place. I haven't played PSO from sega, but didn't it collect some extra user information?
 
Qroach said:
The live server protocol was a natural progression for xbox live or any closed service for that matter. LSP came from the fact MS wanted to extend xbox live support to the PC world in order to allow more MMORPG"S from PC to be converted to xbox. That's really the only way we'd see more 3rd party MMO games on xbox. I don't think any of this came from EA saying they wouldn't aupport live, as I'm certain all of EA's games won't use the live server protocol (sports) or collect any user information themselves.
I'm sure it didn't come about solely from EA's grousing, but I don't think it's precisely a "natural progression." Microsoft wants all the control it can get; publishers want all the control they can get--I think there's a bit of tug-of-war going on there. MMO's are their own ball of wax and could and would likely involve a whole different set of considerations. Sega and EA sports wanting to run their own servers is something Microsoft could have easily put its foot down on (and was in the beginning), and is something that other publishers' games will be putting to use now--with no surge MMO's in sight, and Sega's PSO I&II already in operation for a year(?) without it.

It sounds more like a "natural progression" in the ground MS has to yield to get the relationship they want with the larger 3rd parties.
From what I've heard and read, the deal with sony extended to all games from EA, including sports. So far however EA has only commited to bring ing sports titles to xbox live.
Like I said, there's some ambiguity. (Though only slight--almost every report specifically mentions EA Sports specifically, they just don't dot all the I's and cross all the T's.) Though your second point is wrong, as EA has also announced at least Battlefield: Modern Combat, Burnout 3, and Timesplitters 3 for Live as well--announced alongside the sports titles at EA, I believe. (And definitely confirmed on MS's and EA's sites, along with GoldenEye: Rogue Agent and NfSU 2.)
Part of the reason I don't think any of the issues EA really had were true, is partly becuase I knew many people that were sitting there saying we should support Xbox live, and why aren't we. Second I'm certain EA won't bother to collect user information as it was never impossible for xbox live to allow a publisher to do this in teh first place. I haven't played PSO from sega, but didn't it collect some extra user information?
I can only go by what announcements EA's been making regarding the situation all along. I'm sure there were a ton of people at EA who were WANTING to support Live, knew they could easily couple it with the games, had good ideas on how to apply and expand the features... From a gamer and a coder standpoint, they were probably all enthusiastic about it, but of course in the end it comes down to one thing: control. And the one thing that control leads to: profits. Decisions on THOSE matters only come from up on the highest. EA wanted it; Microsoft wanted to keep it.

I'm not sure where the "information" point comes from, but that's likely not any real factor. Certainly any publisher likes more numbers to be able to crunch their marketing and research data better, but the sticking point is as stated above--control. I'm not sure how PSO was precisely geared, but since Microsoft is running the servers, and you HAD to be set up for Live already, I doubt any extra information was necessary.
 
I'm sure it didn't come about solely from EA's grousing, but I don't think it's precisely a "natural progression." Microsoft wants all the control it can get; publishers want all the control they can get--I think there's a bit of tug-of-war going on there.

You've got a very different perspective on this than I do. First of all, it's a natural progression (LSP) if MS wanted to extend xbox live to PC developers for cross platform (PC/Xbox) developed games. MS would need to allow for some method to certify and run game servers that allowed the control to be handed over to the developer/publisher if they ever want to have a number of massively multiplayer games appear on xbox. Simply put, that's the only way they could take xbxo live to accomdate this need.

Publishers don't want all the control they can get depending on the game. MMO publishers need and require the control, in order to expand servers, tailor teh game to the community, and so forth. However, the majority of publishers want the cheapest method for supporting thier games online. The less it costs, the more you can potentially make off it, and control is not an issue. This is part of the reason why EA's previous arguments against xbox live don't hold any water. Everythign EA argued in the media for, doesn't really apply to the types of games they are making for online. I suppose you didn't even know that EA has been using gamespy for support on their PS2 titles online. At least that's what a gamespy tech guy told me when I dealt with them.

MMO's are their own ball of wax and could and would likely involve a whole different set of considerations. Sega and EA sports wanting to run their own servers is something Microsoft could have easily put its foot down on (and was in the beginning), and is something that other publishers' games will be putting to use now--with no surge MMO's in sight, and Sega's PSO I&II already in operation for a year(?) without it.

I think you're getting a bit mixed up here. Sega isn't running htie rown servers for the sports titles, they are simply using a XSN like system that MS developed so they can create and provide thier own webpages with all the stats and league systems. Sega doesn't have to run thier own servers for that. anyway, I think we disagree on whether this is a natural progression or not. I beleive it is as MS didn't ave a choic in going this route if they want to allow cross PC/xbox games be developed.


I can only go by what announcements EA's been making regarding the situation all along.

Well in this cas3e I'd prefer not to go on EA's PR talk, as they simply never told us the truth in that EA was signed to an exclusive online deal with sony and they couldn't support xbox live even if they decided to.

Certainly any publisher likes more numbers to be able to crunch their marketing and research data better, but the sticking point is as stated above--control.

Well, I'm certain this was never really an issue with EA as I don't see how they are getting user information no that they agreed to support live, and MS provided all sorts of information regarding who was playing what to the publishers already (if requrested).
 
Qroach said:
You've got a very different perspective on this than I do. First of all, it's a natural progression (LSP) if MS wanted to extend xbox live to PC developers for cross platform (PC/Xbox) developed games. MS would need to allow for some method to certify and run game servers that allowed the control to be handed over to the developer/publisher if they ever want to have a number of massively multiplayer games appear on xbox. Simply put, that's the only way they could take xbxo live to accomdate this need.
They would. Of course I would also expect "the need" to be there, which would point to something like "the LSP" coming out hand-in-hand with MMO announcements or ANYthing in the works. Instead there is not (just an MMO cancellation with TFO), and the sole example of MMO-dom currently on their networks is run the original way that they would likely prefer.

Instead we see EA and Sega (and probably some others coming down the pipe soon, though I don't know one would precisely check) using it for very different types of games which have no "need" to be run in that matter, other than the publishers themselves want to. (Even if they weren't averse to Live previously.)
Publishers don't want all the control they can get depending on the game. MMO publishers need and require the control, in order to expand servers, tailor teh game to the community, and so forth.
Obviously not all publishers want the headache, but just as obviously some DO. And the bigger they are, the more likely they want to control them for certain games, either to be able to add the additional features they want without issue, or to control the bulk of the revenue aspects of it.

MMO's are among the games that want it (though not necessarily require it, as PSO shows. I would agree that any major one that wants to do frequent updating and offer the best service they can requires it, true enough), but they are certainly not alone. Nor at the moment are they present. Nor even in the announcement. (Though there may still be that two-year-old rumor of a Rare MMORPG floating around.)
However, the majority of publishers want the cheapest method for supporting thier games online. The less it costs, the more you can potentially make off it, and control is not an issue. This is part of the reason why EA's previous arguments against xbox live don't hold any water. Everythign EA argued in the media for, doesn't really apply to the types of games they are making for online. I suppose you didn't even know that EA has been using gamespy for support on their PS2 titles online. At least that's what a gamespy tech guy told me when I dealt with them.
Possibly "the majority of publishers" by number, but likely not "the majority of publishers" by revenue. Remember we're not talking about "what is now" as "what is getting established for the future." Without control over their own servers, future billing won't be up to them, and probably the types of updates they could offer would have to be filtered through Microsoft. We're entering the age of testing what "purchasable upgrades" players will pay for, and we're staring at the next generation of consoles all with built-in networking and pushing for online abilities to be much more intrinsic of titles in the future. A publisher's control of their own servers, their own features, and their own processes is intrinsic on being able to set their own prices in the future, to best cross-market their products, and to perhaps involve advertising revenue.

The foundations of it all are getting laid now.

EA may be using GameSpy at the moment as a matter of convenience (and I don't know exactly they're intertwined, nor I doubt do you), but they can freely shift and change their operation as they wish, not on anyone else's schedule. For a company like EA, I imagine that's something of paramount importance.
I think you're getting a bit mixed up here. Sega isn't running htie rown servers for the sports titles, they are simply using a XSN like system that MS developed so they can create and provide thier own webpages with all the stats and league systems. Sega doesn't have to run thier own servers for that. anyway, I think we disagree on whether this is a natural progression or not. I beleive it is as MS didn't ave a choic in going this route if they want to allow cross PC/xbox games be developed.
Whether they don't HAVE to, it's certainly what was said in the interview I linked.

Greg Thomas:...The biggest thing that Microsoft is allowing now is us to be able to be in our own network. Last year we had to be in their closed network. This year, they're introducing something called LSP (Live Server Protocol) that enables us to run our own servers. We now have complete freedom to all of the ESPN formatting that we want to do, and that includes posting your own news stories and pictures, things that you want to do with your buddies when you're playing leagues and tournaments and those types of things. LSP gives us that ability that we didn't have last year.

If you look at we've done on NBA for example on the PS2, we had some really cool stuff on how you can have your own news stories and photos, and we're going to continue to do those types of things, but the focus now is the fact that we can now control, update, and manage all of our own data. We can have it all in our own formats, and this just gives us so much more freedom to deliver what we think will be the best online experience out there.


That sounds like A) they're running their own servers, and B) they enjoy more freedom because of it. Heck, even the website-related things you mention would best be done with their own control, as they can add and remove features and tracking info as they will, rather than routed through a third party.

Also, from alter on in the article:

IGN Sports: One of EA's big hang-ups about going on Xbox Live was the fact that they wanted control of their own servers. Do you think LSP now opens the door for EA Sports to be online by the end of the year?

Greg Thomas:
I've read different reports where they wanted control of their own content, but they also didn't fell that it was fair for Microsoft to charge. I think they're wrong about that. I think that the Xbox Live service is really impressive in what they've done and by the number of paid subscribers that they have, that really proves it. I think LSP does open it up, though, because it allows you to use your own servers. So if that was EA's problem, then they can definitely be on Xbox Live this year. But if they had a different problem, a billing issue or a revenue concern, then that hasn't changed. If you read every one of their game reviews, they're making a huge mistake by not being on Xbox Live, and that gives people opportunities. But at this point, we're clearly expecting them to be on Xbox Live by the end of the year.


...which again--at the very least--implies strongly that Sega is planning on using their own servers, and that they see EA's problems as being one stemming from control and pricing. Sega I see coming from one route--they want to best be able to change, enhance, and adapt their games to look as good as they can in comparison. EA I see coming from another--they may or may not care about pushing the innovations, but they do care about content control and pricing.

It's unclear just what the MS/EA deal entails fully. Another thing we'll likely never know...
Well in this cas3e I'd prefer not to go on EA's PR talk, as they simply never told us the truth in that EA was signed to an exclusive online deal with sony and they couldn't support xbox live even if they decided to.
How, precisely, does your particular interpretation of evens become "the truth"? My OTHER previous link showed the kinds of comments they were bundling along with news of the exclusivity agreement (which more and more shows itself to be 'officially' only EA Sports. Unofficially...? Who knows?) Comments by EA's chairman include: EA?s Chairman Larry Probst puts it bluntly: ?Microsoft's strategy is very simple," says Probst, "They collect all the money; they keep all the money." and As 2003 began, says Probst, "it just became increasingly clear to us that we were not moving the needle toward our side" in discussions with Microsoft. In February, Sony announced the royalty structure for its online business. At this point, talks to give Sony exclusive rights to EA Sports Online began to move forward in earnest.

Your interpretation is it's "obvious" they gave up an indeterminate amounts of millions in extra revenue by supporting Live for their sports juggernaut (and all the other titles that could add it, despite there being no exclusivity deal) and future franchise growth on the Xbox platform (GameCube can be annulled from this equation, as their online support is basically zip-over-squat) for an indeterminate amount of money to sign a one-year exclusivity agreement with Sony. As much as I don't take press releases at face value, it also just makes sense from a business perspective for a company like EA. They may have backpedaled on some of their demands of Microsoft as well, but they want what they want, and they know they have the clout to push platforms much more in their direction. That they only signed a one-year agreement with Sony also supports this in my mind, since it leaves discussion open while a threat is in the air. Sony would have been happy to sign a 3-5 year agreement as well, I'm sure, but EA doesn't want to restrict their options THAT way, either.
Well, I'm certain this was never really an issue with EA as I don't see how they are getting user information no that they agreed to support live, and MS provided all sorts of information regarding who was playing what to the publishers already (if requrested).
I'm certain it wasn't as well. What I'm NOT certain of is how the dominant thing--previously unmentioned--you associate with "control" is "collecting player information."
 
...which would point to something like "the LSP" coming out hand-in-hand with MMO announcements or ANYthing in the works. Instead there is not (just an MMO cancellation with TFO), and the sole example of MMO-dom currently on their networks is run the original way that they would likely prefer.

You're incorrect. MS announced http://www.vanguardsoh.com/ to be the first MMORPG using XNA and of course LSP (since it's both PC and Xbox live). Also I did find out form someone that PSO on Xbox still required the user to sign up for a Sega account aside from the Xbox live account.

Instead we see EA and Sega (and probably some others coming down the pipe soon, though I don't know one would precisely check) using it for very different types of games which have no "need" to be run in that matter, other than the publishers themselves want to. (Even if they weren't averse to Live previously.)

They won't be using servers in the traditional game server sense. You won't connect to a main game server and play against somebody else already connected (a model where every user is a client and the server is persistent and handles the matchmaking and creating gamer arenas (like MMO’s). The peer -peer method will stay but there will be a EA or Sega server allowed for user data, leagues, and tournaments. That's what XSN basically is, a separate server for only XSN sports games, it's not going to be like a quake server or anything like that with EA. Like I said before, I think you have a different perspective on it than I.

Possibly "the majority of publishers" by number, but likely not "the majority of publishers" by revenue.

Where in the world are you getting this? By revenue? Look, I’ can easily say the number of publishers that want to get into the types of things EA has complained about regarding Xbox live, is miniscule. I get the impression you’re wandering a bit from our topic.

Without control over their own servers, future billing won't be up to them, and probably the types of updates they could offer would have to be filtered through Microsoft.

The updates will always have to be filtered through MS or Sony or whomever before released. They need to be certified and approved no matter if EA is controlling the server or not. Future billing is another story and I'm sure that's the route EA is going.

The foundations of it all are getting laid now.

Um, I really think this is off topic as your post is going deeper and deeper into an area that I'm not even arguing.


Whether they don't HAVE to, it's certainly what was said in the interview I linked.

Greg Thomas:...The biggest thing that Microsoft is allowing now is us to be able to be in our own network. Last year we had to be in their closed network. This year, they're introducing something called LSP (Live Server Protocol) that enables us to run our own servers. We now have complete freedom to all of the ESPN formatting that we want to do, and that includes posting your own news stories and pictures, things that you want to do with your buddies when you're playing leagues and tournaments and those types of things. LSP gives us that ability that we didn't have last year.

This is just basically what you can do with XSN, and this still seems like a natural progression of the Xbox live service and not something forced upon them by big bad EA.

That sounds like A) they're running their own servers, and B) they enjoy more freedom because of it. Heck, even the website-related things you mention would best be done with their own control, as they can add and remove features and tracking info as they will, rather than routed through a third party.

I think you missed my point. When I say sega isn't running their own servers, I meant in the sense of game or match making servers. IN other words you don't connect to a server and play with somebody in the same sense as a MMORPG. Users run their own servers and connect peer to peer. The stats and league information, etc are handled on Sega’s own servers. That's why I said Sega and EA will simply have their own XSN like system.


Greg Thomas: I've read different reports where they wanted control of their own content, but they also didn't fell that it was fair for Microsoft to charge. I think they're wrong about that. I think that the Xbox Live service is really impressive in what they've done and by the number of paid subscribers that they have that really proves it. I think LSP does open it up, though, because it allows you to use your own servers. So if that was EA's problem, then they can definitely be on Xbox Live this year. But if they had a different problem, a billing issue or a revenue concern, then that hasn't changed. If you read every one of their game reviews, they're making a huge mistake by not being on Xbox Live, and that gives people opportunities. But at this point, we're clearly expecting them to be on Xbox Live by the end of the year.

That article you pasted pointed out exactly what I was saying. All the complaints in the media about EA wanting the more control, user information and being able to control billing and revenue, and such hasn't really changed, so why is EA joining Xbox live now? Why? Because their contract with SONY was up... and it makes sense now that there's a large user base, that's why.

Your interpretation is it's "obvious" they gave up an indeterminate amounts of millions in extra revenue by supporting Live for their sports juggernaut (and all the other titles that could add it, despite there being no exclusivity deal)

What is "obvious" is that there was no guarantee EA would make any additional revenue supporting Xbox live from the get go. The only thing in the bank with regards to online was that EA was getting some large sum from Sony for exclusivity. When the console that has most systems sold offers you a deal to be exclusive to them for a period of time, it makes far more sense that you could make MORE money on that platform.
 
Qroach said:
You're incorrect. MS announced http://www.vanguardsoh.com/ to be the first MMORPG using XNA and of course LSP (since it's both PC and Xbox live). Also I did find out form someone that PSO on Xbox still required the user to sign up for a Sega account aside from the Xbox live account.
True. Forgot that was headed to Xbox as well. Of course since the game is funded and published by Microsoft, it's not like it needed any special circumstances. As with what TFO would have been. Remember, we're talking about LSP's importance to OTHER publishers... (Not to mention Vanguard is likely a 2006 game, so it's still not in the equation I'm talking about NOW.)

They won't be using servers in the traditional game server sense. You won't connect to a main game server and play against somebody else already connected (a model where every user is a client and the server is persistent and handles the matchmaking and creating gamer arenas (like MMO?s). The peer -peer method will stay but there will be a EA or Sega server allowed for user data, leagues, and tournaments. That's what XSN basically is, a separate server for only XSN sports games, it's not going to be like a quake server or anything like that with EA. Like I said before, I think you have a different perspective on it than I.
Of course. That's why EA doesn't care for the "pay to play" aspects of it since it's peer-to-peer (and players may balk at spending extra on a service they're already paying for--which MS doesn't care about since they're getting that subscription--and if MS still has the operational AND revenue control over future possibilities...?), and Sega wanted to have full creative control like they had on the PS2.

There is no "traditional game server" in the sense you're talking about. Most PC games don't stem from a central source, but we still talk about it from a "server" mentality. It's been both free and peer-to-peer for ages, but the publishers still want to route the players together, they enhance the game as they can, they bring into play whatever game-to-web-to-game features they think will keep people playing... Consoles don't have to deal with some of the problems (rampant cheating) or have as many of the alternatives (mod community and specialized servers), so in a way the publishers can effect even more control over a console online community. (It'll be both bigger and simpler--for now.)

It directly impacts the design an direction of the games' online experience. Why do you think the bigwigs WOULD shrug it off?
Where in the world are you getting this? By revenue? Look, I? can easily say the number of publishers that want to get into the types of things EA has complained about regarding Xbox live, is miniscule. I get the impression you?re wandering a bit from our topic.
EA counts as one publisher, but a helluva lot of revenue. Sega also counts as one publisher, but carries a lot of influence itself (by industry name and reputation more than sales anymore, though). Any platform will pay more attention to the top five publishers even if the following twenty are all saying "No worries, we love you!" In 2003, EA was 20% of the US industry all by itself (and two and three were Nintendo and Sony, who obviously were out of the equation for Microsoft)--that number all by itself is going to stop one short. Any other publishers who may not "dislike" Live's policies will still like "options" and may state what it takes to get them--and more of their games--interested. (Not all games NEED much, of course.)

I could say "most publishers" about a whole lot of statements, and yet it doesn't stop the first five from being half the industry's sales.

The updates will always have to be filtered through MS or Sony or whomever before released. They need to be certified and approved no matter if EA is controlling the server or not. Future billing is another story and I'm sure that's the route EA is going.
Checking for quality is one thing, but micromanaging features? Are you trying to tell me that Microsoft looked at Sega's desire to add game features existing on the PS2 side but DIDN'T want them in their Xbox games, because...? If Live had restricting factors for publishers, they want them out of the way.

But yes, EA is concerned with profit potential. That has been my statement since the beginning and THEIR statement since the beginning. (Not to mention it's their approach to pretty much everything.)

Um, I really think this is off topic as your post is going deeper and deeper into an area that I'm not even arguing.
Actually, I just think you're forgetting what you're arguing. Heck, your previous statement basically says you think what I've been saying from the beginning: Future billing is another story and I'm sure that's the route EA is going. The potential for online profit is only going to increase, so whatever maneuvers EA takes now in respect to Microsoft, Sony, and Nintendo will have much more impact in the future. (And they likely have the strongest hand to play now.)

This is just basically what you can do with XSN, and this still seems like a natural progression of the Xbox live service and not something forced upon them by big bad EA.
It's not all that natural now, though. Remember YOUR reason for the "necessity" of LSP comes from one self-published game coming down the pipe in about two years...? LSP is quite possibly something Microsoft has been working on as a method to give others more wiggle-room and creative control (all Microsoft needs to do is tell them what MUST be there, right? why would they put a ceiling overhead?), but who knows when it was aimed at and in what form?

Remember I mentioned LSP among other points they worked out between themselves and EA (since LSP doesn't in and of itself necessarily account for revenue)--and we won't know we'll never see all the sides of it.

Remember we haven't really been arguing about the point, since we both agreed on it since the beginning. You just nit-picked on the detail ("server control") while I wrap control up WITH pricing. (And you in the beginning said "IMO they basically used that as a way to bargain to get some better deal with microsoft.") Server control doesn't mean who gets to turn hardware on and off. It's service control, which amounts to as many details as they're willing to hold out for.

The rest of the time we've just been wrangling other factors and arguing about LSP specifics itself.

I think you missed my point. When I say sega isn't running their own servers, I meant in the sense of game or match making servers. IN other words you don't connect to a server and play with somebody in the same sense as a MMORPG. Users run their own servers and connect peer to peer. The stats and league information, etc are handled on Sega?s own servers. That's why I said Sega and EA will simply have their own XSN like system.
Right, but let's stop arguing over this the specific word used. Basically every PC FPS runs on "servers" that are peer-based, and yet the developer and publisher themselves control the player routing and the features and the updates and the community direction... (Of course on PC's the gamers themselves have a lot of other options as well should they choose.) Service control. But if Sega is talking about being allowed "to run their own servers" it doesn't point to them flipping on and providing tech support for their hardware; it means they control more aspects of its creative direction at their leisure. Their servers; their service.

That article you pasted pointed out exactly what I was saying. All the complaints in the media about EA wanting the more control, user information and being able to control billing and revenue, and such hasn't really changed, so why is EA joining Xbox live now? Why? Because their contract with SONY was up... and it makes sense now that there's a large user base, that's why.
Because we actually have NO idea just what deal EA and Microsoft have worked out? Obviously the situation has changed since last year, else they'd just sign on with Sony for more cash. How on earth do you KNOW "it hasn't changed"? We haven't even seen an EA game on Live yet, and we'll never have the inside scoop on their talks (nor are we apt to really see how the games get run either), so...?

What is "obvious" is that there was no guarantee EA would make any additional revenue supporting Xbox live from the get go. The only thing in the bank with regards to online was that EA was getting some large sum from Sony for exclusivity. When the console that has most systems sold offers you a deal to be exclusive to them for a period of time, it makes far more sense that you could make MORE money on that platform.
Then why not support Live with their non-sports titles, which weren't under exclusivity and WOULD just make them sell better on Xbox? If, according to you, there's BEEN no change in the situation now--and no additional revenue to be expected from Xbox Live--why wouldn't they be signing yet another agreement?
 
Here's an interesting article discussing several points raised in this thread... :)

July 02, 2004

Squeezing revenue from older games

By Paul Hyman
While Hollywood essentially has three chances to wring profits out of a movie -- at the box office, on video, and on TV -- the video games industry has historically been limited to just one -- the retailer. And once a game has ended its typical 6-8-week lifespan on a store shelf, it no longer generates revenue. Until now.

The digital distribution of video games, commonly known as games on demand, is exciting game publishers like Atari which, three months ago, launched Atari On Demand (www.atariondemand.com) to extend the life of its vast portfolio of older, mainstream titles. Gamers can pay $14.95 a month and play to their heart's content or try a game and then purchase it with the click of a mouse and a blazingly fast download. There's no need to head to the local Blockbuster or even subscribe to a games-by-mail service.

"We learned from our friends in the music industry all the things not to do when it comes to digital distribution," says Wim Stocks, Atari's executive vp sales and marketing. "In the face of some huge evidence that the consumer wants to be able to have access to and consume music via digital distribution, the music industry turned its back on that model and did everything it could to push it away. We are beholden to them for showing us that this is a great model and that it can be used to our and to our customers' benefits."

In addition to Atari, a number of communications and consumer service providers -- including Comcast, RCN, Bell Canada, and Yahoo -- have launched games on demand services. And they all have one common denominator -- a tiny, 70-person, 12-year-old company headquartered in Petach Tikva, seven miles east of Tel Aviv, called Exent Technologies.

Exent supplies its customers with the technology that enables games on demand and can also act as a one-stop shop by aggregating and hosting the licensed content.

According to Yoav Tzruya, Exent's vp of products and markets strategy, each of his customers sees different reasons for embracing games on demand.

For consumer service providers like Yahoo, there is a constant search for "killer services" to offer customers. In addition, such providers can earn higher ad revenues if they are able to prove to advertisers that their subscribers include high percentages of targeted demographics, like the 18-34-year-old male gamers who traditionally make up the majority of hardcore gamers.

Indeed, on Yahoo, the Top 10 games on demand titles are invariably popular "hardcore" games, both new and old, more often the latter. This week, the number one game was the three-year-old "Civilization III," followed by last year's "Rise Of Nations," the two-year-old "Rollercoaster Tycoon 2," and the three-year-old "Dungeon Siege."

"For the broadband communications services, like Comcast, RCN, and Bell Canada, games on demand means an increase in revenue, an incentive for customers to upgrade their bandwidth packages, and a powerful mechanism for decreasing churn," says Tzruya. "Users who subscribe to games on demand services are 75% less likely to switch to other broadband providers."

That's because inexperienced video game users who feel uncomfortable walking into a game retailer and selecting a game that may or may not play on their PC often find games on demand to be less frustrating.

"You don't have to go through the rigorous process of installing a game," explains Tzruya. "One click starts the streaming process onto your PC and, after you've buffered about 10-15% of the game, it starts playing. The rest of the game continues downloading invisibly while you play." Games on demand services require broadband service and typically offer PC games rather than console video games.

At Comcast, the decision to launch a games on demand service just a month ago -- at www.comcast.com/gamesondemand -- was a lengthy one.

"We started to develop the audience over a year ago when we opened Comcast Arcade, in partnership with Real Network, as a casual games channel," notes Charlie Herrin, vp of business development for Comcast Online. "And it's been one of our most successful channels. When we felt our customers there had reached critical mass, we started working with Exent to bring a very compelling, cross-demographic list of titles to those people so they could really take advantage of some of our recent speed improvements. We had the audience, we have the speed, they were familiar with us as a provider of games, and this was the next logical step."

Comcast now offers more than 70 game titles that can be accessed by subscription (but not purchased) and is adding new ones every other week.

Meanwhile, Atari sees advantages to games on demand that go beyond extending the life of its classic-games catalog. It is currently in discussions with its retailers to determine how its newest titles, too, can also be distributed digitally.

"But we need to be careful not to undermine our retailers' work," says Atari's Stocks. "And so we're looking at models in the new-release-launch scenario where we could make the games available for digital download but also enable the retailers to share in the model. We won't do it unless we get the retailers' support."

In fact, one of the biggest concerns of game publishers is to avoid cannibalizing the retail channel.

"Publishers have to be really careful not to offend the large retailers who could easily cut back on their shelf space," says Michael Cai, senior analyst at market research firm Parks Associates. "And if that deters publishers from jumping on the games on demand bandwagon, it will surely slow the trend."

According to a Parks Associates study, over two million broadband-enabled households will be subscribed to games-on-demand services by 2007. But, as of year-end 2003, only 100,000 subscribers comprised that market.

According to Exent, the lack of enthusiasm by game publishers won't be a problem. The company claims it is currently working with nine out of the 10 largest publishers -- from Activision to Vivendi -- which license their games to the Exent service. (Missing from the list is Electronic Arts.) They do not, however, feature digital downloading on their sites as Atari does.

"I think we've proven to the publishers that games on demand (don't) cannibalize anything," says Exent's Tzruya. "We approach a different set of gamers who don't go into the stores that sell games. More than 50% of the games on demand customers are women, and we have quite a few who are 25-plus years old. We are approaching different decision makers and different budgets."

In an industry in which game development costs are increasing and, according to market research firm The NPD Group, there has been an 11% decline in unit sales and a 14% decline in revenue from 2002-2003, Tzruya predicts that the games on demand sector is going to look awfully good to publishers seeking new revenue sources.

"There's no question that digital distribution will contribute to our business going forward," says Atari's Stocks. "We have a soft goal that within the next three years 25-30% of our business will be fulfilled by a games on demand model. It started as a distribution tactic for us, but it's become a full-fledged publishing strategy. For us, games on demand has become an additional platform -- like PlayStation 2 or the PC or wireless games -- that lets us make our games available to as broad an audience as possible."

Paul "The Game Master" Hyman was the editor-in-chief of CMP Media's GamePower. He's covered the games industry for over a dozen years. His columns for The Hollywood Reporter run exclusively on www.hollywoodreporter.com.

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