Should there be official regulation of game updates?

It's complicated, but in principal i agree with Shifty that there should be a Guarantee that you can use the product you bought and that it should provide the advertised features that was present at the time of your purchase.

In the case of the PS3, Linux should never have been removed, they might have been forced to upgrade the security of the Linux but the main functionality of having Linux should not have been removed.
In case they did remove it Sony should have to compensate it's buyers by either fully paying back the purchase price, or offering something in exchange for those that kept the Nerf'd PS3.

On the other hand we have something like GT6, i downloaded a 1.2GB patch after i inserted the disc into my PS3. Clearly the game i have now is no where what i bought, and i am now limited to the game that Sony decides i should have in the future (yes a DD issue yet again).

However, the lack of consumer protection laws when it comes to these kind of things is absurd. It's all up to the big guys to decide what is fair for the customer, as long as they don't really compete on these issues we need laws to protect us. And we all know how big business works, if it's good for them they will never try to outcompete each other. Another fail for free market.
 
For your TV example - that stuff is already covered. It's mostly intangibles where the law is still finding it's feet. But as ERP noted, you need to be careful regulating otherwise you can turn everybody disgruntled troll into a lawsuit machine.
As I said earlier, I'm not overly fond of governmental intervention and would rather the industry recognise the issue and self-regulate with a standard code of conduct. Because software can do anything, it's possible to find a software/business solution without needing legal protection per se, although a legal position helps focus the market on being self-regulating.
 
How about other legal protections? With many games needing online activations/the cloud ect there is no guarantee your game will be playable in the future
As ive said before If i sell a game to requires me to wear a top hat to work I should be prepared to wear a top hat.
 
Very good topic, also firmware updates on game consoles should be regulated.

SingStar icon is something that springs to mind immediately. I know, this is problem only for EU region and as last hope, we should bring this problem to European Commision because Sony doesn't listen.
 
In case they did remove it Sony should have to compensate it's buyers by either fully paying back the purchase price, or offering something in exchange for those that kept the Nerf'd PS3.
They did refund people. A collective example of consumer protection working :cool:

Very good topic, also firmware updates on game consoles should be regulated.

SingStar icon is something that springs to mind immediately. I know, this is problem only for EU region and as last hope, we should bring this problem to European Commision because Sony doesn't listen.
What's the problem? Other than wishing I could hide the icon, actually a whole bunch of icons that I don't use in XMB, it's non-intrusive :???:
 
What's the problem? Other than wishing I could hide the icon, actually a whole bunch of icons that I don't use in XMB, it's non-intrusive :???:
It's the default. It replaces the user wallpaper with a Singstar image, and ghastly music if you've used Singstar. And it was introduced with an update with no option to disable, so it's a forced intrusion. In itself it's hardly the end of the world, but everyone I know with a PS3 dislikes it's presence as it's giving arbitrary emphasis to the product. It also shows how an update can make unwanted changes. What if Sony introduce icons for every single first-party game in the list, that cannot be removed and have to be cycled through to get to your own content? What if a product (console, smart TV) is sold without adverts and then these are introduced in a FW update in a way that, had the product been shown with those adverts at time of purchase, it would not have been bought as a result of their intrusion on the experience? The Singstar icon is a good example of the potential risks IMO.
 
It's the default. It replaces the user wallpaper with a Singstar image, and ghastly music if you've used Singstar. And it was introduced with an update with no option to disable, so it's a forced intrusion. In itself it's hardly the end of the world, but everyone I know with a PS3 dislikes it's presence as it's giving arbitrary emphasis to the product. It also shows how an update can make unwanted changes.
I'm definitely not getting Singstar wallpaper and music by default when I turn on my PS3. And scrolling down the games list, well I only get the wallpaper change and accompanying audio if settle the scroll list on an icon for a moment.

What if Sony introduce icons for every single first-party game in the list, that cannot be removed and have to be cycled through to get to your own content? What if a product (console, smart TV) is sold without adverts and then these are introduced in a FW update in a way that, had the product been shown with those adverts at time of purchase, it would not have been bought as a result of their intrusion on the experience? The Singstar icon is a good example of the potential risks IMO.
What if none of this happens, like it actually hasn't anywhere at all? What if placing the Singstar icon on the XMB was just a dumb idea? Regulate actual consumer problems sure, regulate hypothetical what if scenarios? Sounds like a waste of Government time.
 
What's the problem? Other than wishing I could hide the icon, actually a whole bunch of icons that I don't use in XMB, it's non-intrusive :???:

It's non-intrusive? ... I beg to differ, not only intrusive but also offensive and disrespectful to paying customer.
They placed this icon/advert on the top of all games you bought and actually want to play. You will see this advert everytime you exit game back to XMB (cannot be avoided) and after boot (this can be avoided by booting into news section) and of course you need to skip this icon everytime you want to play your games installed on the HDD.
And all this without any note in fw. update description.


SingStar.jpg
 
They placed this icon/advert on the top of all games you bought and actually want to play. You will see this advert everytime you exit game back to XMB (cannot be avoided) and after boot (this can be avoided by booting into news section) and of course you need to skip this icon everytime you want to play your games installed on the HDD.
I need to turn on my PS3, which I've not done for a few weeks, but I'm certain Singstar is not the default icon when I switch on. I can't recall what the default behavior is when returning to the XMB from quitting a game - if we defaulting back to Singstar, rather than the icon you launched, that sounds quite irritating.

I'm assuming you've contacted Sony about this?
 
What if none of this happens, like it actually hasn't anywhere at all? What if placing the Singstar icon on the XMB was just a dumb idea? Regulate actual consumer problems sure, regulate hypothetical what if scenarios? Sounds like a waste of Government time.

Some time ago Sony boasted how successful this move was ... so no, whatever makes them profit is good in their eyes.
 
Some time ago Sony boasted how successful this move was ... so no, whatever makes them profit is good in their eyes.
That would be interesting to read, do you have a link?
 
Cheers. Unfortunately it's a good example [for Sony] that demonstrates prominent product placement sells content. Of course it's a fine line and could be abused but Sony haven't expanded this on PS3 and there's nothing like this on Vita or PS4 - although on the latter the music and video stores are fairly prominent as well. I'd like to credit Sony for knowing where the line is, although they've clearly crossed it for some.

But how would you propose to regulate this kind of thing? You're not losing functionality, or being prevented from using the console how you like and the irritation levels of things like this are subjective. I don't see a big deal, but give me a dodgy remote control and things are quite different. When to regulate 'irritatingness' it could be open to abuse for the law trolls.

In the UK there is a fine line between 'promotion' and 'advertising', the latter being heavily regulated.
 
I'm definitely not getting Singstar wallpaper and music by default when I turn on my PS3.
Either you conclude everyone who reports this problem is lying because you have no first-hand experience, or you conclude it doesn't affect everyone the same way but still exists as an issue as described.
What if none of this happens, like it actually hasn't anywhere at all? What if placing the Singstar icon on the XMB was just a dumb idea? Regulate actual consumer problems sure, regulate hypothetical what if scenarios? Sounds like a waste of Government time.
I think that's a typically naive and stupid attitude. "Rather than plan for potential problems in the future, let's wait until the problem happens before looking into solutions." That makes a mockery of human capacity to extrapolate and imagine and plan ahead IMO.

But by all means, if you want to wait until a game you've spent $60 on becomes a post-release ad-fest with intrusive microtransactions before wanting to tackle the issue, you can sit back and wait and hope it never happens. You can also wait for the sea levels to rise and start flooding towns before trying to do something to stop the danger, and wait until flying cars are crashing into each other before planning for solutions to prevent that happening in future. And after the horse has bolted, you can look into securing the stable door. :p
 
Either you conclude everyone who reports this problem is lying because you have no first-hand experience, or you conclude it doesn't affect everyone the same way but still exists as an issue as described.
Sorry to bust your binary preconceptions but it's neither of those. I have plenty of first hand experience of using the PS3 but wasn't aware that the PS3 start up behavior had anything other than a single default experience, nor am I calling anybody a liar. WTF? Hyperbolic much?

I think that's a typically naive and stupid attitude. "Rather than plan for potential problems in the future, let's wait until the problem happens before looking into solutions." That makes a mockery of human capacity to extrapolate and imagine and plan ahead IMO.
I understand your concern for consumers but I am surprised by your disregard for the reality of limited Government time, parliamentary time and budgets. Governments are generally preoccupied with issues relating to health, education, housing, jobs, the economy and defence, and these dictate the priorities. Problems will get resource, 'what if' theoretical problems generally will not, not least because most governments take an evidence-based policy development approach to regulation and legislation and if the problem is theoretical, you don't have evidence, you have conjecture, which makes it hard to hold a public consultation (which is a legal requirement in this country, and plenty of others).

There is a draft bill in the UK, the so called consumer 'Bill of Rights' that is proposed to cover digital purchases but, relative to other issues, it's low priority for all parties involved in drafting it. Priorities. Real evidenced problems today vs theoretical 'what if' problems tomorrow. But feel free to ignore the reality of Government machinery if you like.
 
They placed this icon/advert on the top of all games you bought and actually want to play. You will see this advert everytime you exit game back to XMB (cannot be avoided) and after boot (this can be avoided by booting into news section) and of course you need to skip this icon everytime you want to play your games installed on the HDD.
Apologies to OP for off-topic but your PS3 experience got me curious. Mine is quite different which you can see here (26mb .mov). The video starts with my PS+ summary screen, then the default icon for my PS3 is the PSN icon. If I scroll along to the Games part, my default is the Blu-ray disc. If I away from the Games list into the Music list then back into the Games list, it reverts to where I was last time. If I start a game then exit back to XMB, it drops me into the Games list where I was before.

Perhaps this is why I commented it was non-intrusive, because for me I've not done anything other than skip past it. I hovered over the icon though, and yeah, if you get that a lot. IRRITATING! :devilish:
 
Sorry to bust your binary preconceptions but it's neither of those. I have plenty of first hand experience of using the PS3 but wasn't aware that the PS3 start up behavior had anything other than a single default experience, nor am I calling anybody a liar. WTF? Hyperbolic much?
Not hyperbolic - just very literal. The Singstar situation was presented as evidence in favour of how changes can be negative. Your reply must either be in favour of that view, or against it, such is the nature of discussion. So the interpretation of, "I'm not getting that experience," is, "this isn't a problem." The other possibility, one I overlooked, is that it was just a tangential observation not directly involved in the discussion.

I understand your concern for consumers but I am surprised by your disregard for the reality of limited Government time, parliamentary time and budgets...
Hold your horses, mister. The argument that the Government has more pressing concerns is a valid one, and one I'd possibly agree with. That's different to suggesting it's not a concerned that warrants consideration due to not having happened yet though. You go on to say, "regulate problems that exist, but not those that don't," which is contrary to decent organisation, and typical of human management. I think we all have either first or second hand experience of corporations where the engineers/floor workers have pointed out potential issues to management, management has ignored them because it's not an issue now, and then the problem has happened and there's a mad scramble to fix it and lots of angry management blaming the workers for failing. Often the reasons management/government hasn't time to explore possible future situations is because they're firefighting existing problems caused by a lack of planning and preparation in the first place.

If there's a possibility of this being an issue, it makes sense to explore that now before it happens as it's typically easier to deal with a problem before it's happened. And we're not impinging on any governmental time yet as we're just talking about it in a forum. ;) Perhaps if some serious evidence comes to light, it'll be worth writing to one's MP. :p

It's worth noting that I am starting work on my own game and want to plan how to handle updates and microtransactions and DLC, and want a system that's a good compromise between user experience and business sense. I'm wondering from an ethical POV that if an update to the mechanics changes the nature of the experience, is that some sort of violation of the consumer's right of ownership? Regulation doesn't have to come from the government.
 
Apologies to OP for off-topic but your PS3 experience got me curious. Mine is quite different which you can see here (26mb .mov). The video starts with my PS+ summary screen, then the default icon for my PS3 is the PSN icon. If I scroll along to the Games part, my default is the Blu-ray disc. If I away from the Games list into the Music list then back into the Games list, it reverts to where I was last time. If I start a game then exit back to XMB, it drops me into the Games list where I was before.

Perhaps this is why I commented it was non-intrusive, because for me I've not done anything other than skip past it. I hovered over the icon though, and yeah, if you get that a lot. IRRITATING! :devilish:

I boot into "What's New" section, but prior Singstar update I always booted into the Games list part of the XMB where SingStar is now default icon.

Also if you remove blu-ray disc from the tray, you will end up with Singstar icon on your screen, I made quick worst case scenario video (sorry for quality it's made with phone).
 
Not hyperbolic - just very literal. The Singstar situation was presented as evidence in favour of how changes can be negative. Your reply must either be in favour of that view, or against it, such is the nature of discussion. So the interpretation of, "I'm not getting that experience," is, "this isn't a problem." The other possibility, one I overlooked, is that it was just a tangential observation not directly involved in the discussion.
Let's retread the steps. novcze raised Singstar but didn't explain what his issue was. I was aware Singstar had slotted itself in the PS3 games list because I've seen it there but I wasn't aware of the apparent controversy surrounding it. Certainly based on my experience, and that's I'm ever going to post on, it is non-intrusive. You can see my typical experience in the video I posted. I'm not getting it be the default icon on startup, nor quitting from a game/app back to the XMB. For me, it's not intrusive. I didn't say he or anybody else was lying. novcze getting a different experience to me is certainly interesting, but doesn't change my perspective, nor does it mean I'm suggesting others are not being truthful.

Hold your horses, mister. The argument that the Government has more pressing concerns is a valid one, and one I'd possibly agree with. That's different to suggesting it's not a concerned that warrants consideration due to not having happened yet though. You go on to say, "regulate problems that exist, but not those that don't," which is contrary to decent organisation, and typical of human management.
However, it is how Government's legislate and that's what consumer protection is. Legislation.

I think we all have either first or second hand experience of corporations where the engineers/floor workers have pointed out potential issues to management, management has ignored them because it's not an issue now, and then the problem has happened and there's a mad scramble to fix it and lots of angry management blaming the workers for failing.
Managing a country under public scrutiny afforded for transparent democracy is nothing likely managing a corporation, even a large one. Take for example Microsoft's reversal of some of its Xbox One platform policies. That took from E3 to a week later.

Government doesn't and can't work like that. It's constitutionally limited by judicial processes that generally limit changes being made in anything less than around two orders of magnitude as much time. You want to pass new consumer legislation, first you need a Bill. The UK's consumer Bill of Rights has been in public draft since June and it's not expected to reach cross-party agreement until at least the same time next year. Before it got that far it was preceded by a Green Paper set forth in October 2011. Now if the final draft of the Bill passes through both Houses (Commons and Lords) without being sent back for amendments, a Government Department will begin drafting legislation but not before undertaking a full public consultation targeting every corner of UK who would be affected by the legislation. Consultations can run months but will set out the issue for regulation based on factual evidence (this is a Government Commitment) and offer some very preliminary ideas for control measures. Once a consultation period is closed it can take months to sift through all the responses because there can be thousands, or tens or hundreds of thousands of responses. All need to be considered before drafting the legislation for publication, after which you have to give time for comment again. Cost to consumers/industry and Government need to weighted too. A Department needs to own the legislation, somebody needs to enforce it.

If you're wondering why I seem to know a lot about this it's because I've done this. First the Export Control Act 2002 (which is enabling legislation), then the Export Control Order 2008 (a statutory instrument) which has the actual details in. More than eight years of work in all and that was just overhauling existing legislation!

Start to finish, drastic changes to legislation can easily take five years and when it takes five years to introduce, you have to make sure it's evidence based and covers everything because a minor amendment can take months to bring into force. To make matters harder, Government Departments have very little Parliamentary time each year in which to put forward White Papers, Green Papers, draft Bills, draft Acts and legislation (including amendments) for passing. There is already an insane amount of legislation which needs constant amendment and change so finding time means convincing your Minister that your thing is more important than all the other stuff they also need to do. There is never enough Parliamentary time for Government Departments to get everything they want through. Not even half. Less I'd wager in many departments.

And it's not just the UK that is like this. Look at any democracy and the same chains of judicial process will be found. The only things you can do quick, are things like disasters, emergencies and national defence. Everything else is slooooooow.

If there's a possibility of this being an issue, it makes sense to explore that now before it happens as it's typically easier to deal with a problem before it's happened. And we're not impinging on any governmental time yet as we're just talking about it in a forum. ;) Perhaps if some serious evidence comes to light, it'll be worth writing to one's MP. :p
I know it sounds nuts, but no. When you're drafting legislation, which is tricky enough, it helps immeasurably to have real specific examples to work from. Drafting legislation is hard without the detailed background of a real situation to analyse. For example, just a test of articulating the problem - and without the need to write in the style typical of legislation - outline in plain English a rule that would stop Sony doing what it did with the Singstar thing.

Also I'd challenge you, with a good chicken dinner at stake, to find a single example anywhere in the democratic world of regulation preceding a problem. Look at any industry you like: industrial, aerospace, energy, entertainment, communication etc. It doesn't happen, Governments no longer draft legislation to control theoretical problems, and have not for about a hundred years.

It's worth noting that I am starting work on my own game and want to plan how to handle updates and microtransactions and DLC, and want a system that's a good compromise between user experience and business sense. I'm wondering from an ethical POV that if an update to the mechanics changes the nature of the experience, is that some sort of violation of the consumer's right of ownership?

Well definitely keep an eye on the consumer Bill of Rights, linked above, because the committee drafting it want to cover all aspects of digital transactions although I don't think it'll cover the kind of things that are being suggested in this thread.

Regulation doesn't have to come from the government.
Your'e absolutely right. You can self regulate but I'm hard pushed to think of an example where consumers were well protected by an industry self-regulating, and I wish this were not the case because if it worked, Government would be a lot less busy.
 
Let's retread the steps. novcze raised Singstar but didn't explain what his issue was. I was aware Singstar had slotted itself in the PS3 games list because I've seen it there but I wasn't aware of the apparent controversy surrounding it.
Yes, I understand that now. You understood the situation described to be the same you experienced, rather than appreciating there was a different experience. I know it's not an issue when you have a game disc in.

If you have no game disk in, ordinary behaviour for PS3 is to boot to the game list with Singstar selected. Your boot video didn't default to game which is surprising, but Network. I guess that's something to do with PS+ and the updates listed on start? If you have played Singstar, it plays some awful soundtrack as well as the ghastly picture. In itself it's not a big thing, but it is obtrusive and an indication of how an experience can be changed adversely (I think XB360's dashboard upgrades have changed advertising prominence, but that'll take a 360 owner to describe) and I think a good example of how things could go.

Government doesn't and can't work like that. It's constitutionally limited by judicial processes that generally limit changes being made in anything less than around two orders of magnitude as much time...
Thanks for your detailed response. The sluggishness of governments to introduce suitable changes and rules is a topic of political debate. It may be easy to imagine that things could operate differently and faster than that's possible in actuality, although that'd be a complex discussion on a matter with loads of legacy baggage influencing it. The lack of pre-problem drafting capacity is one of concern for me because I greatly believe in the human capacity to think through and plan. First drafts are rarely ever ideal, but they can at least prepare for something ahead of game and provide a better solution than a knee-jerk response. I've heard that governments plan for things like crazy disease outbreaks too, so it's not like its unheard of, although I accept that's quite a different scenario to a little consumer protection. ;) Successful addressing of the Millenium Bug was a suitable 'before it happens' strategy. The draft Bill of Rights doesn't seem to recognise the possibility of post-sales changes to digital content, and it looks to me like now's the time to introduce the legislation into the existing Bill before it's ratified. Is this a matter Parliament has even considered when discussing the Bill and what it should cover? Probably not, so it'd be good for it to get raised IMO.

Still, government intervention doesn't need to come into this, other than perhaps to say, "it's not going to come from the State any time soon - you're better off looking for regulation elsewhere." There are a few industry trade associations with some clout, I think, that could promote a code of conduct, and if publishers make this known and engage the public openly about it ("buy a game from us and you won't have it changed via update without your consent, unlike some other publishers"), the public could accept a culture of checking first and choosing whether or not to buy products 'subject to change'. The industry at the moment is looking into microtransactions and possible State regulation.

If any of the publishers had the same attitude towards QA, and could promise, "buy a game from us and it'll work day one. Our rivals won't commit to that promise, so you're better off waiting," they might be able to do something similar for the larger, more immediate issue of selling broken software.
 
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