Radeon8500 "high poly count" bug?

[Randell]

Of coz, the Rad 8500 which used to be able to compete with the Ti500 now loses to a G4 MX440 and a G2 Ti200

lol this made me smile on second reading, nice to realise mouseanony was jsut yanking our chain

 

[Doomtrooper]

I don't think it was meant to be a joke

 

[Althornin]

No, i dont think it wa either, DT.
And thats very sad.

 

[Sharkfood]

Man, good thing I wore my boots today..

That Mouse post was so full of revelations... I was almost expecting a reference to Voodoo5 and RGMS in the sig.

 

[Doomtrooper]

Man, good thing I wore my boots today..

That Mouse post was so full of revelations... I was almost expecting a reference to Voodoo5 and RGMS in the sig.

Lol,

No way the spelling is way to good and not enough reference to graphic experts.

 

[Randell]

yeah I know it wasnt a joke

And nobody was called a retard or farted from their mouth, so its still anon to me.

 

[MouseAnony]

I issue the same challange as in my other post.

If you can show me two recent indepth (with many games/benchmarks not just Quake) reviews/comparisons with the latest OFFICIAL drivers by a reliable site (Anandtech etc) and another two from less reliable sites (but not crapola like Ace's hardware, www.iloveati.com, Tom's Hardware) I'll retract my statements.

Altho what I say is well known to most people out there, I know there a lot of Nvidia haters and ATI lovers here who simply REFUSE to believe fact.

Go read what JC said or look at recent reviews (etc G4 previews) for those of you who do believe fact. You will notice the Rad 8500 is now doing terrible.

Personally, what I hate most about this is it means Nvidia is still the only true competitor. I've been waiting a long time for a true competitor since

I'm sick of the disgusting prices and policies of Nvidia which are destroying the 3D card market. IMHO, they've set back the 3D graphics market 2-4 years.

If only STMicro, ATI, Matrox, Via, SIS or someone could produce a real competitor, I'll jump to it anyday. Instead they just really on spruced up reviews to sell cards. It's a pity Nvidia is so dirty that they will end up seeing worse if they show ATI and others tricks.

I'll have to congratulate STMicro tho. Their cards seem good but just too old to be worth it.... Matrox and Via and SIS likewise (altho they haven't done anything lately). ATI were similar with the Rad 1 (altho they really spruced it up in drivers for reviews as well) but the Rad 2 is a diff story (it's a piece'o crap).

I love the Voodoo3 days when 3Dfx and Nvidia were competitors. Sadly, it ended with the Voodoo4.

Since then Nvidia has had the only good cards

 

[Dave Baumann]

If you can show me two recent indepth (with many games/benchmarks not just Quake) reviews/comparisons with the latest OFFICIAL drivers by a reliable site (Anandtech etc) and another two from less reliable sites (but not not crapola like Ace's hardware, www.iloveati.com, Tom's Hardware) I'll retract my statements.

You are the one making the spurious claims, you are the one that needs to back up these claims!

 

[Doomtrooper]

I issue the same challange as in my other post.

If you can show me two recent indepth (with many games/benchmarks not just Quake) reviews/comparisons with the latest OFFICIAL drivers by a reliable site (Anandtech etc) and another two from less reliable sites (but not crapola like Ace's hardware, www.iloveati.com, Tom's Hardware) I'll retract my statements.

Altho what I say is well known to most people out there, I know there a lot of Nvidia haters and ATI lovers here who simply REFUSE to believe fact.

Go read what JC said or look at recent reviews (etc G4 previews) for those of you who do believe fact. You will notice the Rad 8500 is now doing terrible.

Personally, what I hate most about this is it means Nvidia is still the only true competitor. I've been waiting a long time for a true competitor since

I'm sick of the disgusting prices and policies of Nvidia which are destroying the 3D card market. IMHO, they've set back the 3D graphics market 2-4 years.

If only STMicro, ATI, Matrox, Via, SIS or someone could produce a real competitor, I'll jump to it anyday. Instead they just really on spruced up reviews to sell cards. It's a pity Nvidia is so dirty that they will end up seeing worse if they show ATI and others tricks.

I'll have to congratulate STMicro tho. Their cards seem good but just too old to be worth it.... Matrox and Via and SIS likewise (altho they haven't done anything lately). ATI were similar with the Rad 1 (altho they really spruced it up in drivers for reviews as well) but the Rad 2 is a diff story (it's a piece'o crap).

I love the Voodoo3 days when 3Dfx and Nvidia were competitors. Sadly, it ended with the Voodoo4.

Since then Nvidia has had the only good cards

Stating that Aces Hardware is a crap site pretty much a joke but I do have some reviews for you to look at:


http://www.tweakers.com.au/articles...r8500/page1.asp

http://www.3dchipset.com/articles/ati.aiwr8500dv/

http://www.hardocp.com/reviews/vidc...00le/index.html

http://www.escortcosworth.com/petru...gf3vsradeon.htm

http://www.tweakersasylum.com/Revie...08/00000001.htm

http://www.3dxtreme.org/8500p1.shtml

http://www.h2h.ca/8500review.shtml

http://216.123.84.163/custom/layout/3b/radeon_8500.wmv

ATI Radeon 8500 64MB Video Card in Video Review #135:
"This Video Card has crisp 2D and dual display support, excellent 3D gaming performance and it's affordable. Bang for the buck, this card is hard to beat! The Radeon 8500 64MB Video Card definitely falls in the KICKASS category" ~3dGameMan.com

http://www.bench-house.com/video/at...n_8500_001.html

"Because all of this ATI Radeon 8500 receives Editor's Choice award as the best product in its class."

Oh there is plenty more

 

[MouseAnony]

You are the one making the spurious claims, you are the one that needs to back up these claims!

I already have. Look at recent reviews from reliable sites. E.g. Anandtechs G4 review (look at SS). Or read what JC said.

 

[Dave Baumann]

I already have. Look at recent reviews from reliable sites. E.g. Anandtechs G4 review (look at SS). Or read what JC said.

That does not back up your claims of faulty hardware, changed specifications , "special drivers", that only proves that there were instances that Radeon 8500 performed poorly on Anands review.

 

[pascal]

MouseAnony:
People think the Rad 8500 is a good GPU let down by poor drivers. It's actually a poor/incomplete GPU greatly improved by ingenious drivers.

Ok, I am interrested to hear you. I have personally seen incredible things (other areas) before.

Do you have anything supporting this theory?
Could it be partially wrong?
How much incomplete is the r200? 5%, 20%? 3% but very important?

 

[Humus]

Or read what JC said.

He said it will be a "fine card for the game".

 

[Althornin]

Mouseanony, plese either offer some REAL PROOF (factual evidence that proves your claim - note: this does not mean reviews that show lower perf. in what is already a old driver set, becaue you can draw any conclusion from slow perf. you want, including the idea that the radeon is powered by space aliens who got tired when it came time to render Serious Sam) or go away. Your trash is clogging up these forums.

This board is NOT full of "ati lovers" or "nVidia haters". I own ATI cards and nVidia cards both. These are perhaps the MOST objective boards possible when it comes to 3D graphics. And as for your claims that it is "well know", how come you are the first piece of psuedo-human tripe i have seen posting about it?

 

[MouseAnony]

That does not back up your claims of faulty hardware, changed specifications , "special drivers", that only proves that there were instances that Radeon 8500 performed poorly on Anands review.

It should be obvious to anyone with a brain that I do not have access to the special drivers and there is not way I can prove they exist. Obviously there is no way I can prove it's fault hardware or changed specs either. Anyway, as I said in another post, my basic hypothesis is clear and has not been disproven. The Rad 8500 is performing poorly at the moment and with one future game (old drivers boost performance at the expense of color, texture and fog). I've given my proposed reason for this but you can believe in aliens or simply dud drivers if you want. But it falls down to my original point. The Ti200 is a better choice then a more expensive Rad LE8500 at the moment!

However people with a lot of clout should already know about this. Not everyone believe it's of coz but most do.

But they won't dare say anything officially or openly because they cannot prove it by your standards of proof. In any case, they will seriously piss off ATI, Nvidia, Via and probably a whole host of other companies if they start discussing all the very dirty industry secrets in open public.

And believe me, Nvidia especially will be extremely pissed off and they are a terrible company, as I have said before.

Also read what I say below

Mouseanony, plese either offer some REAL PROOF (factual evidence that proves your claim - note: this does not mean reviews that show lower perf. in what is already a old driver set, because you can draw any conclusion from slow perf. you want, including the idea that the radeon is powered by space aliens who got tired when it came time to render Serious Sam) or go away. Your trash is clogging up these forums.

Read what I said above, it partially answers what you said.

Obviously for those who don't have much clout, the only way they can get reliable info is by looking at reviews and maybe doing their owns tests.

FACT (supported by most reviews): The old drivers had a lot of fog, texture and quality issues. Only minor usually but noticeable. If you want to be thorough, you need to get two exactly equal comps (with equal very high quality monitors) except put one Rad 8500 in one and a G4 or G3 or Kyro or something in the other. Use the exact same settings. Get the old, high performing (or any very high performing drivers) for the Rad 8500. Compare the overall rendering quality and ask yourself why the Rad 8500 always seems a little worse then the other card despite the exact same settings etc.

FACT (supported by some reviews): The only new official drivers which don't have the quality issues are low performing

FACT: JC and others have reported serious and unresolved problems with the Rad 8500 greatly related to performance (note ATI might fix the issue but the Rad 8500 might perform very slowly when they do and JC may not say this)

Once again, I will retract my statement when

"you to either show at least two reviews from reliable sites with proof that even newer official beta drivers perform up to the old standard.

I said official drivers becoz it's possible ATI has 'accidently' reintroduced the 'bug' in their unofficial drivers. I'm pretty sure they won't in official however if I see a lot of reviewers complaining about display problems, as happened with the old drivers (the reason Anand used the new beta drivers instead of the old better perfoming drivers is because, as stated on the site, they fix quality issues) I will change my mind"

This board is NOT full of "ati lovers" or "nVidia haters". I own ATI cards and nVidia cards both. These are perhaps the MOST objective boards possible when it comes to 3D graphics. And as for your claims that it is "well know", how come you are the first piece of psuedo-human tripe i have seen posting about it?

Just because you don't have contacts you are very close to doesn't me you have to cry ok? When I say well known I don't mean to the general public or discussed openly. This board seemed to have more in the know members (which is why I said it was well known) but obviously not. These boards objective? No one has proven to me that the Rad 8500 is still performing very well with the new official drivers. All they say is oh I found that it is performing very well even with the new unofficial drivers which I found somewhere strange. This isn't objective bro. Objective is using trustworthy sources to prove your point. I have used Anandtech. You just use your own findings. If you are objective why are you recommending the more expensive Rad LE8500 over the cheaper G3 Ti200 when all recent findings point ot the Ti200 being a better card (it's faster with the new drivers; it doesn't have all the fog, color & texture issues with old drivers; it doesn't have unresolved issue with D3)

I will desist since it's obvious no one here is going to believe even my most basic hypothesis (Ti200 is a better choice then the Rad LE8500) despite the undisproven facts (that the Rad 8500 is performing poorly at the moment). I'm leaving this group since it's saddened me. Honestly, it's this kind of attitude (love the alternative, i.e. ATI above everything else) which is allowing Nvidia to destroy the industry!!!! I hate Nvidia and I hate you. You're helping Nvidia to destroy the 3D graphics industry!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S. I've been in contact with a few people I know to see if it is likely to ever become public. They say def not. In fact, they've reliably heard that thanks to the game developers help, ATI has greatly improved their info removing drivers 'bug'. They've supposedly changed it so it only cuts between 5-15% so performance increase is less but quality is virtually identical (it requires an extensive test to notice). So we may see the drivers coming back somewhat in terms of performance (when ATI reintroduces the bug). Also, they've managed to improve on JC's issue. It works but still quite slowly. Of coz, it will never perform that fast but they can likely improve it.

Well GOOD BYE. For good!!!

 

[nggalai]

OT: Meta discussion

Hi MouseAnnoy,

as you still might read this, just a little bit regarding your argumentation technique:

Anyway, as I said in another post, my basic hypothesis is clear and has not been disproven.

It's standard procedure in any form of argumentation and research that extraordinary claims have to be proven by those who made the claim--and NOT disproven by the others. (The old "the moon is made out of cheese" argument.)

Your claims about those special drivers are extraordinary. Hence, you have to provide at least some proof to make those claims valid in any way. Observational data the way you proposed can serve as nothing but example, and an example is not a valid argument--one counter-example (such as the one provided by Humus) will negate its value.

The Beyond3D forums are largely non-fanboys forums. Your style of argumentation is therefore not only not appreciated, but also without effect apart from annoying a lot of people. If you're a troll, fine, you should be satisfied now and live happily ever after (hopefully far, far away from these forums). Should you be serious about discussing here or with people in general, please be a bit more sensible about it.

ta,
.rb
________
Harley-Davidson Model BA

 

[Randell]

Well playing the game. How about Toms Gf4 review which shows the Radeon8500, using the 6025 drivers, outperforming the Gf3Ti200 and the gf4MX440 in all benchmarks - Giants, Max Payne, Aquanox, QuakeIII and 3dMark2001. So Dx and OGL benches there, on a poor OGL driver set.

Here:
http://www.tomshardware.com/graphic/02q1/020206/geforce4-09.html

 

[Nil Einne]

Re: OT: Meta discussion

Hi MouseAnnoy,

as you still might read this, just a little bit regarding your argumentation technique:

Anyway, as I said in another post, my basic hypothesis is clear and has not been disproven.

It's standard procedure in any form of argumentation and research that extraordinary claims have to be proven by those who made the claim--and NOT disproven by the others. (The old "the moon is made out of cheese" argument.)

Your claims about those special drivers are extraordinary. Hence, you have to provide at least some proof to make those claims valid in any way. Observational data the way you proposed can serve as nothing but example, and an example is not a valid argument--one counter-example (such as the one provided by Humus) will negate its value.

I think he/she does have a point. His/her argument that the Radeon 8500 was never completed is obviously BS as is the drivers argument. However it appears he/she (and after rereading his/her first post I agree) his/her main claim is that Ti200 is better then the Radeon 8500LE at the current time. No one has really shown me that the Radeon 8500LE is a better choice. His/her claim in this sense hasn't truly been negated IMHO because no one has really shown me how the Radeon 8500LE does with the new fixed drivers. And the anandtech reviews have scared me a bit...

Well playing the game. How about Toms Gf4 review which shows the Radeon8500, using the 6025 drivers, outperforming the Gf3Ti200 and the gf4MX440 in all benchmarks - Giants, Max Payne, Aquanox, QuakeIII and 3dMark2001. So Dx and OGL benches there, on a poor OGL driver set.

Er... Okay but he/she was talking about the cards I were choosing between, the Radeon 8500LE and Ti200.

Anyway, now that things have settled down, I can return to my main question is this. Is it really true that the issue Anandtech found has been fixed? And if so, is Radeon 8500LE now performing better then the Ti200?

 

[Nil Einne]

Overclocking

From:
http://216.12.218.25/domain/www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=388

According to some unofficial info, that some card makers spread here, ATI has prepared a new, "overclocked" Radeon, but it was barely faster than a normal 8500. Supposedly ATI's driver team hasn't deliver software that could utilize more power, but frankly I don't understand, why same card with higher clock would need new driver tho show increase in clockspeed.
Strange. But they have"all in one" or "one for all" chipset family... at least

Cause Radeon 8500 memory controller, imho, kinda sucks and increasing core clock and memory clock doesn't bring a lot of perfomance increase.
It does scale bad. If drivers team couldn't increase REAL performance maybe a small overclock couldn't bring much more to the table.

Hmm this worries me. I am seriously considering overclocking the card I get. So if I get the Radeon 8500LE and it's performance doesn't increase much if I overclock it this is no good especially when I can get the cheaper Ti200 and hopefully overclock it (the memory at least) to Ti500 levels and get a lot better performance. Does anyone have any confirmation or refutal of this argument?[/url]

 

[Doomtrooper]

In a modern games the 8500 is as fast or faster than any of Geforce 3 line of cards. I don't consider Dronez and Vulpine Gl mark unbiased benchmarking either, even Aquanox was develped and optimized with a Geforce 3.
Games like Serious Sam 2 or Max Payne will seperate the 8500 from the Ti200.
MOHAA or Return to Castle Wolfenstein are also good examples of tweaked modern engines.
I can't for the life of me believe that people actually compare a Ti200 to a 8500..even a LE.

Most Le's can be flashed with a retail bios and run at 275 mhz + with no issues, here is a link where this person did just that:

http://www.xcl-clan.com/articles.php3?id=29&p=1


This article here:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/video/radeon8500-overclocking/

Shows a 25% increase in speed by overclocking, I wouldn't call that exactly poor. Old driver used here too.