R300 the fastest for DoomIII, John Carmack Speaks Again

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Pete said:
BTW, I'd love to see someone post aniso and FSAA scores to compare with Chalnoth's, particularly with a level (bilinear) aniso playing field. Someone step up to the plate! :)
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I would do (i'd have to run the 1600x1200 tests blind as my monitor only goes to 1280x1024) but I don't know which version of Q3 he is using or which demo. Post those and i'll have a go.

Preliminary values for playing though are 80-140fps for 2xFSAA 16xaniso and 30-60fps for 4xFSAA and 16x aniso (both quality modes) at 1024x768x32.
 
I'd like to add a few things.

(a) NVidia knows exactly what ATI is up to and vice versa. And so does Matrox, and 3Dlabs, etc. You can't keep these things very secret within the industry (employee turnover, investors, MS wants to know HW specs for DX9,10,11, etc).

(b) ATI's drivers are getting better and I have no doubt that the R200 was running on not-so-hacked drivers. We have a guy working here who worked at ATI for years and he says that one of the last big projects he worked on was a simulator of sorts so that the drivers could be developed at the same time as the hardware was. He claims that the Radeon was the first chip which would have used this new (for ATI) method, and it shows.

I have an ATI Radeon 8500 and it runs perfect. I have no problems (under Win2k) and all my games run just fine. I've hated ATI in the past for their shitty drivers, but this is an area where they seemed to have improved immensely and I can only see it getting better.

Either way, I don't know why people are arguing. All this competition is good for the end-users.. US :)
 
A lot of people on here are anti-Nvidia and they show it when they post.
It does make me sick that people are so ignorant but what can I do about it?

Anyway barring some disaster, the NV30 will be released this fall and so will Direct X 9.0. I had emailed Microsoft two months ago and he said that they delayed it because of security but that direct X 9 would be out around October in NON beta form. I am not at home right now and if you want to see the email I can provide it for you.

The NV30 will be released in late fall (oct-nov timeframe). John does not have silicon of the NV30 yet as I told you and that he wasn't talking about the NV30 when he talked about Doom III. You can probably see silicon in the July-August time frame.

I am interested in the truth and not some lame brain anti-nvidia crying 3DFX fan who is upset that his company got purchased by the enemy.

I loved 3DFX and I love Nvidia as well as ATI, but geeez a lot of you need to be more objective and less biased.
 
I would just like to publicly state that my previous assumption about the Nv30 was WRONG and i am a DORK! :oops:

However...

If Nvidia is doing all these refreshes to the GF4 and Even comming out with a Nv28.. Then apparently they are not intending on releasing, or are capable of releasing the Nv30 for quite some time..

It would not make sense for them to release an Updated GF4 at the same time or even close to the launch of the Nv30.. wich leads me to believe that the Nv30 is at least 6 more like 8 months away.. You cant have silicon in august and launch a final release in October.. can you?? that seems pretty unreasonable to me. It also seems they are positioning their Nv28 against the R300..... Which is suicide to all but the most hardened Nvidiots. The R300 alpha was released over a month ago, and it is intended to launch in late august early September. 4 months. If silicon on Nv30 is ready in august, then its likely december at the earliest. At wich point they had better HOPE that the Nv30 is faster than a R300 with 3 months driver development under its belt.

However... Who knows what the hell those guys are doing....
 
3) nVidia is working on a higher speed GF4 which can only be on a 0.13um process. This implies a GF4 Ultra for this fall
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I think you guys look too deeply into John's words. Carmack probobly approached nVidia for something to run Doom3 on and they speed-binned an NV25 that could hit, say, 350-400+mhz (maybe even spun a board with faster RAM) and sent it to him. End of story. This is what i was going to say before, but figured it wasn't worth the argument with people who were so sure of it being the NV30.

But, in the long-run, a dramatic shift of all their SKDs to 0.13um is proboble.
 
You cant have silicon in august and launch a final release in October.. can you??
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We are still quite a ways from August though. For all we know NV30 silicon may be turning up on NVIDIA's dorrsteps tomorrow and it could be 100% correct, in which case they could be rampling up production immediatly! We don't even know if NVIDIA have already had a version back from the fabs and its just not great at the moment - having a metal version though means they would know many of the issues and could be going for a respin right now, and the general rule of thumb is 6 weeks for a respin.

In short, I highly doubt they will be as long as 8 months away- but it does depend on the errata in the chip and the length of time it takes to resolve it.

all we know is that R300 is in a more presentable state than NV30 right now, but it could be as little difference as a week if NVIDIA are in a respin cycle right now and only just missed E3 for it (and its all OK).
 
they could do the same thing ATI does... release NV28 against RV250 and NV30 against r300

on the other hand they are doing NV18... maybe for the low end against ATIs 7500
 
Docwiz,

Sorry, but nobody here hates nVidia. We're anti-Netscape, pal. As you can see, Chalnoth clearly uses Netscape for E-Mail. It's been proven that the net average IQ of a Netscape user is 6. Believe me, I know, I read it somewhere! With that said, it is clear John Carmack did not really say he was comparing to the GeForce 4 because Chalnoth is not a realiable source - being a Netscape user. It was the NV300 he was comparing. Believe me, I know, because I think so! And you, obviously wanting to disagree with me, is probably a Netscape user as well! Until you two start seeing the light and use Eudora for E-Mail and Mozzila for the Web, you both have no credibility!

Heed my advice fool!
 
What if the reason that there are no credible leaks about the NV30 is that NVidia is keeping its features very tight under wraps in order to blindside the competitors when it comes out?
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Hmm could be. But given the fact that nVidia has more driver leaks then a boat made of swiss cheese even after they said they were cracking down, then I wouldn't give more credit to this idea. But I don't think this is the case here.


The high clock GF4 makes sense to me as the leaks about this product (NV25 on 0.13 ) apparently was the reason why some thought that NV30 would be delayed. In fact nVidia seems to be moving at lot to the 0.13 procent (record number of tape outs).
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&

At this point I think Nvidias OEM partners are pretty much used to being bent over like this. I cant imagine being an nvidia oem being all that much fun to be honest. Aggressive, rapid product cycles are great for the consumer but are hell for ihvs.
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Yea I agree. Lets see. A typical nVidia card maker starts out the year with GF3 Ti500s, GF3 Ti200 as there main product with a bunch of GF3, GF2mx, ect as leftover stock. No biggie. Then like clock work, nVidia announces in the spring the new line up. So now they have to plan to sell as much remaining stock to make room for GF4 ti 4400 and GF4 Ti 4600 and if they are really feeling lucky they might stock some GF4mxs. However they learn that in 2 months a GF4 Ti200 will be out. They find out it out performs all of the GF3 so they are now left with the poster child for short life, the GF3 Ti500 that no one wants (or few do as most people I know waited for the GF4 Ti200). Dam, oh well they have to eat a loss and try to dump them at bargain basement prices. Then in the summer they here of the NV18/28 (or what ever). Oh great. Now what to do with the GF4mxs? And if the NV28 is faster than the GF4 Ti4600, then they have another higher end product that may not sell much anymore. But wait, only a month or so until nVidia until the next traditional launch of the fall line up, which usually means more chips/cards...and now all GF4 or NV18/NV28 become obsolete and once again they have to cut prices to move stock so they can be ready for the xmas season. Only to look forward to the same thing next year?
So yea rapid products good for us. But bad for vendors :(

If they do come out with the NV18/28 then is that their "fall" line up? If not, its gonna be hell :(
 
Of course, ATI could also play that game...when NV30 does ship, ATI could start the "hype" on the successor to the R300.....
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The only possible problem i see with this is the underlying assumption that the Nv30 will be Faster than an R300, or offer more compelling features. And that Ati will *need* to hype their next card. I simply dont think this is the case. R300 was clearly engineered to beat up on Nvidia's next product (wether it does or not remains to be seen). And We have no idea of the new features it has.

I just dont think that the Nv30 is going to be a better product. It will be the same at best... The only ploy they will be able to play imo is the BS driver crap. But, well see how far that goes with reviewers this time around.
 
If they do come out with the NV18/28 then is that their "fall" line up? If not, its gonna be hell
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That's the big question. I do not ever recall nVidia launching ANY new desktop product outside of their usual Sept & March launch dates. This is new territory for nVidia (assuming they do officially unveil NV18 & 28 in June as rumored.)

So we poor saps trying to speculate on what this means for the next set of following products are left standing with are d*cks in the wind. (Refrain from making a comment about Teasy...;) ) It would seem to make more sense (if NV30 is launching in August / Sept) that the NV18/28 are essentially the equivalent in performance to NV17/25, just lower priced. That would make room at the high end price scale for NV30. It would also make sense to not make a "big deal" of the launch.

If NV28 turns out to be a GeForce4 Ti "Ultra", as one might guess based on Carmack's comments, it does make a case for NV30 being a "late '02 / Early '03" part.
 
Kristof said:
Or maybe you care to enlighten me on how JC and ATI came to demo-ing DoomIII on not-yet-announced R300 hardware ? Do you believe that ATI just provided JC with some early in-progress drivers that happened to run fine without any extra effort from either side ?
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Well, considering that I do work at ATI, I can't answer these questions. I merely wanted you to explain your comments about "hacking" and "tweaking" and "special Doom3 drivers".
 
Joe DeFuria said:
That's the big question. I do not ever recall nVidia launching ANY new desktop product outside of their usual Sept & March launch dates. This is new territory for nVidia (assuming they do officially unveil NV18 & 28 in June as rumored.)
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Geforce2 MX, TNT2 Pro/TNT2 M64
So we poor saps trying to speculate on what this means for the next set of following products are left standing with are d*cks in the wind. (Refrain from making a comment about Teasy...;) ) It would seem to make more sense (if NV30 is launching in August / Sept) that the NV18/28 are essentially the equivalent in performance to NV17/25, just lower priced. That would make room at the high end price scale for NV30. It would also make sense to not make a "big deal" of the launch.

If NV28 turns out to be a GeForce4 Ti "Ultra", as one might guess based on Carmack's comments, it does make a case for NV30 being a "late '02 / Early '03" part.
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My take is that a high-speed NV25 derivitive will be used to cover mid-to-low range while NV30 will be high-end.
 
OpenGL guy... works for ATi......

{bows down in humble adoration and awe}

come on admit it... R300 opens a Can of Whoup ass... Right?
 
Joe DeFuria said:
That's the big question. I do not ever recall nVidia launching ANY new desktop product outside of their usual Sept & March launch dates.
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the GF4 Ti4200 was launched later
(OK... it wasnt a real Product Launch)
 
Actually, I disagree. The ti4200 was shipped later, but it was hastily included in the launch at the same time as the other ti products.
 
I'm quite sure it would be a mistake of nVidia to position NV28 as a high end part. Compared to R300, it would certainly have lower performance and embarrasingly less features. If nVidia fails to deliver NV30 within about 2 months of R300, they will lose their position as market leaders, at least in the high end.
 
OpenGL guy said:
Kristof said:
Or maybe you care to enlighten me on how JC and ATI came to demo-ing DoomIII on not-yet-announced R300 hardware ? Do you believe that ATI just provided JC with some early in-progress drivers that happened to run fine without any extra effort from either side ?
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Well, considering that I do work at ATI, I can't answer these questions. I merely wanted you to explain your comments about "hacking" and "tweaking" and "special Doom3 drivers".
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I think Kristof tried to say that probably this next generation card has early drivers needing some speciall attention (from both sides) to run with Doom3. He probably had no intention to offend or harm anyone.

We know Kristof and he is a reasonable guy. Can you identify yourself? Can explain to us what ATI did?
 
As I said, GF2MX and TNT2 Pro/M64. Both were launched in the summer.
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I'll take your word for it. :) They were also launches with little or no fanfare, because those parts were not designed to be "faster" than the previous incarnation...just more cost efficient.

So one might would expect the same of an "off-cycle" launch of the NV18/28.

But that would seem to conflict with what nVidia was trying to "win" with the Doom3 demo with, unless nVidia was purposely trying to supply a card that they know will never exist, just for demo purposes.
 
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