NVnews fun....

WaltC

Veteran
Guys, get a load of this Q&A segment I just saw on nvNews....OMG...*this* is the kind of PR nVidia is doing these days...?? BTW, "A" below comes from an official nVidia spokesperson...

Q: We all know by now that the GeForceFX is equipped with 128 bit DDR II. What exactly are the technical benefits of running 128 bit DDR II over 256 bit DDR?

A: From a technical design complexity point of view, fewer pins are better. The wider the bus, the more pins are required on the GPU, the more traces you have to route across the board and the more often you have a memory granularity issue. A 128-bit bus requires fewer connections than a 256-bit bus. Of course, bandwidth is important too. For situations where you cannot raise your clock rates or cannot improve your data compression to get more effective bandwidth, going to a wider bus is a clear method to increase bandwidth. [empahsis mine] However, if you can run a narrower bus at a faster clock rate, you can get just as much raw bandwidth. This is exactly what we did with GeForce FX. We chose to use DDR2 because we could run it at 500MHz! Here’s a pop quiz question --Which is faster….half the width at twice the speed or twice the width at half the clock rate? Mathematically the raw bandwidth is the same for those two cases.


*chuckle*....Unfortunately, 500MHz wasn't enough to catch the 9700P's raw bandwidth--they'd need to be running @620MHz (1240MHz DDR) to be able to state that. But of course with nVidia they'll state it anyway...

I love the " in situations where you cannot raise your clock rate or you cannot improve your data compression you'll go to a 256-bit bus"....drivel...ah...don't tell me that some people actually *listen* to garbage like this???? Remarkable--I had no idea it was this bad...(...first time I've paged to nvnews in years, I admit)....whew! Reading this stuff would make me feel like a part of the bubblegum and skateboard generation, if you know what I mean.
 
Uttar said:
Geoff Ballew doesn't always seem to be very logical :)
Anyway, that isn't a nV News interview. It's an Elite Bastards interview:
http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=858&head=1&comments=1

nV News was barely linking it.

Uttar

Well, I pulled the quote directly from the nvNews site on its front page, so I'm not sure what "barely linking" means...;)

Anyway...it's just been awhile since I've read any PR mush like this, and so it was surprsing to see it. But not totally unexpected of course. For the last four months I've been involving myself in chats with ATI personnel and reading their comments closely--and man, what difference. This is the kind of comment I haven't heard from them. But it's just marketing so I suppose I should be jaded to this sort of thing by now...Yet it still rubs me the wrong way when I read stuff like this---it's just so brazenly and arrogantly wrong and slanted....How can people learn anything about technology when it's presented in such a twisted fashion?

Ah, well--don't mean to seem to especially abrasive toward nVidia these days, but to say I am underwhelmed by the GF FX "launch" thus far would be a gigantic understatement...I'm just tired of the equivocating and the BS...
 
I think just about everyone is underwhelmed with the GeForceFX launch, but there's not much NVIDIA can do about it other than put it out and live with the "R350 is right around the corner" comments in their reviews, just like ATI did.
 
Agreed, nVidia PR for the GFFX is getting annoying.

I think it's going to be a good card. I really like some of its features.
But some nVidia employees are just going TOO far.
I could even understand if they're really excited by the GFFX, and would like to exaggerate it a little because they think it's good. I can understand that trying to put all things in a good light is a perfectly traditional marketing idea.

But this interview is just a wonderful example of how annoying PR can be. It's ridiculous.
I'm sorry but that interview is too vague. The answers aren't very useful, and sometimes Geoff clearly tries to escape a part of a question.

I know I'm gonna look strange saying this, but anyway...
Could we PLEASE get more interviews with the likes of David Kirk about the real reasons ( or anyway, the ones that can be made public and which haven't been said everywhere ) , the technical reasons behind some of those design choices?
For example: How efficient are those 32 Shader units in the PS? Is the main advantage of the NV3x VS architecture Dynamic Branching, or is it also better for ops?

David Kirk interviews, although sometimes too vague, are generally fairly interesting. Certainly much more than this one. Or anyway, even if we don't get David Kirk interviews ( I'm sure he's busy making employees working faster on the NV35 ) , could we get answers sometimes coming directly from some of the engineers? It would be nice IMHO.


Uttar
 
The rule of thumb is "More PR is needed or used if you have a less competitive product going up for sell".
 
WaltC said:
For situations where you cannot raise your clock rates or cannot improve your data compression to get more effective bandwidth, going to a wider bus is a clear method to increase bandwidth.
*chuckle*....Unfortunately, 500MHz wasn't enough to catch the 9700P's raw bandwidth--they'd need to be running @620MHz (1240MHz DDR) to be able to state that. But of course with nVidia they'll state it anyway...
I don't get why you're pissed at this. It's the plain and simple truth. We'll see whether or not nVidia succeeded soon.
 
WaltC said:
I love the " in situations where you cannot raise your clock rate or you cannot improve your data compression you'll go to a 256-bit bus"....drivel...ah...don't tell me that some people actually *listen* to garbage like this???? Remarkable--I had no idea it was this bad...(...first time I've paged to nvnews in years, I admit)....whew! Reading this stuff would make me feel like a part of the bubblegum and skateboard generation, if you know what I mean.

Garbage? Dude, chill out.

There is a perfectly rational statement. If you are designing a chip, and faster RAM is buyable on the market, or you have room left in your compression algorithm, then you can do those first. If you've exhausted all your other possibilities (there is no faster RAM you can buy, you've hit compression limits), then the *only* way to increase bandwidth is to go 256-bit. Otherwise, you don't neccessarily have to widen your bus. You can save costs on chip packaging, and use those transistors/design resources for other things. The NV30 is proof of this. If DDR2 wasn't available, the NV30 would have been a 256-bit bus chip, because there would have been NO OTHER WAY.


There is nothing wrong with this guys answer. There are many ways to increase bandwidth (faster clock, different RAM bus architecture, compression, wider bus, TBR) 256-bit is not inherently the best way. Depending on your architecture, the available RAM technology, etc different techniques have different costs.


Imagine this was an ATI guy, and they were asking him why didn't ATI go to .13um and ATI said

"in situations where you cannot fit more transistors on your die, or cannot increase clock speed, you'll go to .13um micron process"


Take that Lithium I gave you earlier.
 
Chalnoth said:
WaltC said:
For situations where you cannot raise your clock rates or cannot improve your data compression to get more effective bandwidth, going to a wider bus is a clear method to increase bandwidth.
*chuckle*....Unfortunately, 500MHz wasn't enough to catch the 9700P's raw bandwidth--they'd need to be running @620MHz (1240MHz DDR) to be able to state that. But of course with nVidia they'll state it anyway...
I don't get why you're pissed at this. It's the plain and simple truth. We'll see whether or not nVidia succeeded soon.

I think he means that NVIDIA were kinda trumpting what ATI did.. and somehow twisted it to say NVIDIA can match it going the other route of faster DDR II RAM.
 
I don't think that phrase is a slag against ATI. He's saying, if faster RAM isn't available and no room is left in compression algorithms, you must go to wider bus. He wasn't saying that ATI couldn't increase their RAM speed and could not make better compression. People are reading too much into it.

Again, if ATI had said "in situations where you can't increase your transistor count, or clock rate, you must go .13um" is that an attack on NVidia that they couldn't increase their transistors on .15um, or is it a simple statement of fact?

In engineering, there are always multiple ways to implement someting that all achieve the end result, the difference is usually how fast you can implement them and how much they will cost, and personal aesthetics of the design engineer.
 
I dont think it is a good idea to speculate what someone else will say to a hypothetical question.
 
Is there some other 256-bit card pertinent to a discussion of the nv30 besides the one made by ATI?

I think the message that the nv30 uses 16GB efficiently and the R300 doesn't has been consistently promoted by nVidia marketing to an unreasonable degree ("48 GB effective bandwidth"), and I think mentioning that a 256-bit bus is suitable for when you cannot have data compression to get "effective bandwidth" (the R300 does have data compression) and cannot raise your clock rates qualifies most definitely as spin.

I also think that proposing this spin has nothing to do with ATI and the R300 is rather selectively naive.

One problem with your evaluation is that your so called ATI equivalent statement would have to have been more like: "in situations where you cannot increase your bus width or cannot improve your data compression to get more effective bandwidth, going to a higher clock rate is a clear method to increase bandwidth."

Can you see how it is the same spin as present in the quoted statement? Was it really that hard to make an accurate "ATI equivalent statement" with the same wording and the same inaccurate implication regarding a competing product?
 
What a timely thread to start up, WaltC.

Wasn't it you who said (in defense of ATI not supporting SSAA), "Personally, I'm more than happy to let them decide these things as I think they probably know their hardware a little better than the armchair critics." Don't you think nVidia knows their own hardware a lot better than you do? What's with the change...? Oh, excuse me, I forgot - we're discussing nVidia's products..
 
dksuiko said:
What a timely thread to start up, WaltC.

Wasn't it you who said (in defense of ATI not supporting SSAA), "Personally, I'm more than happy to let them decide these things as I think they probably know their hardware a little better than the armchair critics." Don't you think nVidia knows their own hardware a lot better than you do? What's with the change...? Oh, excuse me, I forgot - we're discussing nVidia's products..
Oh please.
woud you guys stop insulting each other all the damn time?
i swear, you and DC turn every statement that could be constued as slightly "f@nish" into a personal matter by insulting whoever said it.
It turns things into a pissing match and does more damage to these boards than any f@nboy statement.

Why do you think NO ONE else capable of distinguishing what is f@nish and what is not?
why do you feel the need to make things personal?
You've just created a hostile situation where none existed before.

Would you guys just STOP?

If the product is good, its doesnt need a few "Holy knights" around to defend it.
So just let the product speak for itself, hmm?
All these problems will vanish when comprehensive real benchies are released - you dont need to defend nVidia.
 
Could it be because - GASP! :oops: - they are f@nboys themselves?
Or have some personal stake in either company?

Just a thought.
 
Althornin said:
i swear, you and DC turn every statement that could be constued as slightly "f@nish" into a personal matter by insulting whoever said it.
It turns things into a pissing match and does more damage to these boards than any f@nboy statement.

Why decide to make your valiant post in this thread just now and direct it at me? You could've made this wonderful post of yours in a reply to the first post in the thread - considering that WaltC took something that was slightly 'PR speak' and blowing it out of proportion into something thats garbage, your entire post can be directed at him, as well.
 
demalion said:
One problem with your evaluation is that your so called ATI equivalent statement would have to have been more like: "in situations where you cannot increase your bus width or cannot improve your data compression to get more effective bandwidth, going to a higher clock rate is a clear method to increase bandwidth."

Can you see how it is the same spin as present in the quoted statement? Was it really that hard to make an accurate "ATI equivalent statement" with the same wording and the same inaccurate implication regarding a competing product?


That statement would also be 100% correct as well. So why is it bullshit? Why read this as negative? It is a simple statement of fact: You can either increase bus size, increase clock speed, or increase efficiency: choose which ones you can implement. The guy even said that they are equivalent. He didn't say "2x clock is better than 256-bit bus", he simply say, they are mathematically equivalent bandwidth. Two flip sides of the same coin, two ways of doing the same thing, each with their upside and downsides.


How can you guys take a simple statement that effectively says "there are two ways to get X bandwidth: double your bus size or double your clock rate" and turn this into some kind of PR FUD statement. It is completely true.

The guy was asked what were the benefits going higher clock vs wider bus and he gave them as a simple answer. This is one of the least spin-worth statements I've ever seen out of NVidia. You want spin? Go look at Derek Perez's interview answers.
 
i swear, you and DC turn every statement that could be constued as slightly "f@nish" into a personal matter by insulting whoever said it.
well because pretty much everyone has some degree of "f@nboyism" in them. everything everyone says and does is based, in part, on some form of "f@nism" whether it be arguing over nVidia or ATi PR, or which gasoline they buy. I buy 91 or 93 octane every single time because i seem to have it stuck in my head that higher octane is better. I guess that makes me somewhat of a "f@nboy" of high octane fuel. have you ever heard of the word "biased"? well, i hate to tell you this, but everyone is biased to some degree. Some of us acknowledge that fact and try to be as little biased as possible, but its always going to affect us. When people that are biased to two opposites interact they will almost assuredly end up with negative personal feelings towards the other person because they feel that the other person is set out to destroy something that they hold a personal connection with. Put a capitalists and a socialist in a room together and youre definitely going to have some negative vibes going on- the strength of which depends, of course, on the sum of the absolute difference from true neutral of the two individuals. As a living, self-aware entity I have personal feelings. expect to be witness to some of them if youre around me.
 
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