Next Gen GPU architecture GCN, RDNA, Navi 10/20 (PS5 Navi Hybrid, Xbox Navi Pure) *spawn*

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PSman1700 said:
Doing some research for Navi hybrid Vega, there seems to be a report from a tech site stating first generation Navi is hybrid Vega, and that the next gen navi is going to be full RDNA.
Don't know if its right (google translate).

https://www.sweclockers.com/nyhet/2...0_ykvtkz-DHXeg0ixumgtZ9Gaus9myLD1sviJ9_sogZhM
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That’s interesting if true. Not sure if applicable here if there is no intent on ever selling it.

I would caution jumping to conclusions wrt. PS5; their delays or rather the possibility of
trying to get PS5 out the door 2019; needing more engineers; or the original discussion of co-designing this chip with AMD.

I mean it’s tempting, but let’s stick to what we know and confirmed by Cerny.
 
iroboto said:
That’s interesting if true. Not sure if applicable here if there is no intent on ever selling it.

I would caution jumping to conclusions wrt. PS5; their delays or rather the possibility of
trying to get PS5 out the door 2019; needing more engineers; or the original discussion of co-designing this chip with AMD.

I mean it’s tempting, but let’s stick to what we know and confirmed by Cerny.
Click to expand...

Sorry but i don't really understand what you mean :) The arcticle i found states that they have gotten information that the first generation Navi is hybrid GCN/RDNA, adn that 2020 will see a real RDNA variant, named Navi 20. That would mean PS5 will be using a high-end chip that launches 2020, not the rumored Navi10. That is if PS5 will be released 2020.

Problem is, i can't seem to find another source claiming this, other then Linux drivers supporting this.
 
PSman1700 said:
Doing some research for Navi hybrid Vega, there seems to be a report from a tech site stating first generation Navi is hybrid Vega, and that the next gen navi is going to be full RDNA.
Don't know if its right (google translate).

https://www.sweclockers.com/nyhet/2...0_ykvtkz-DHXeg0ixumgtZ9Gaus9myLD1sviJ9_sogZhM
Click to expand...


I'll give a basic summary of the article:
It says that they have been given information that a number of Navi parts are GCN based while others, like many of the ones AMD has decided to highlight, are RDNA.
Apparently there are a number of reasons why but the one they cite in the article is that modern games and engines have been optimized for GCN and they don't want to lose that and have to start from scratch.
And it is not until Navi 20 is released early next year that they will release "pure" RDNA to market and challenge NVIDIA in the highest performance range.

SweClockers is a long running site and they used to be really well respected and trusted back in the day but i haven't really kept up with them and don't know what their current reputation is like so i can't vouch for them.
 
PSman1700 said:
Sorry but i don't really understand what you mean :) The arcticle i found states that they have gotten information that the first generation Navi is hybrid GCN/RDNA, adn that 2020 will see a real RDNA variant, named Navi 20. That would mean PS5 will be using a high-end chip that launches 2020, not the rumored Navi10. That is if PS5 will be released 2020.

Problem is, i can't seem to find another source claiming this, other then Linux drivers supporting this.
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Console designs have to be locked in years in advance to bring the entire console together to hit specific price points. It's generally not something you can switch at the last second very easily. There's that aspect, but the contingency is to design more than 1 chip at once; if you require to change your timelines you can switch the design your'e working on.

But yes, I agree it's probably the Navi announced by Su. I don't anticipate even if it weren't and Sony went with this hypothetical hybrid Navi, we wouldn't know the truth anyway at least not until the actual generation was underway.
 
Even if the PS5 Navi is fully GCN compatible, that still wouldn't give Sony 100% BC with the GPU in the PS4. There have been breaking changes in the graphics instructions area since then, which is why the GPU in the 4Pro model is a bit of a frankenstein monster with some new bits bolted on but nothing else changed.
 
So if I'm following along correctly;
if we take these GEN 1 Navi's rumours as true; they are hybrid GCN navi CUs to ensure some form of backwards compatibility performance;
the July 7 RX5700 and PS5 are using that variant of Navi. And not the 2020 Navi.
This eerily falls in line with supporting the 4Pro Vega bits as well.
 
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iroboto said:
So i'm following along correctly;
if we take these GEN 1 Navi's rumours as true; they are hybrid GCN navi CUs to ensure some form of backwards compatibility performance;
the July 7 RX5700 and PS5 are using that variant of Navi. And not the 2020 Navi.
This eerily falls in line with supporting the 4Pro Vega bits as well.
Click to expand...
Reminds me of the rumours that navi this year doesn't support RTRT but navi 20 next year does.

I had personally put that down to Navi 10 may not have enough horse power to properly support their implementation. But guess this could be the reason.

Edit :
Just thought, if next year it was a move away from GCN and not the hybrid, then would it still be called navi. Would it be AMD's next gen gpu from their roadmap?
 
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Jay said:
Reminds me of the rumours that navi this year doesn't support RTRT but navi 20 next year does.

I had personally put that down to Navi 10 may not have enough horse power to properly support their implementation. But guess this could be the reason.

Edit :
Just thought, if next year it was a move away from GCN and not the hybrid, then would it still be called navi. Would it be AMD's next gen gpu from their roadmap?
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shrug. I suppose they'd call it a RX6700 or whatever the next naming convention might be.

I mean thinking about PS5 rumours launching in 2019, the rumours about needing additional engineers, co-designing navi with AMD and now learning about the hybrid Vega as being a possible BC mechanism; even going as far as exclusivity on this particular navi design (the hybrid one). Sony was really close to pulling off a 2019 PS5 launch, and it's possible that MS only ever saw/heard of the 2020 navi which is why they always had 2020 launch in mind and had no access to this hybrid one.

Had Sony succeeded to launch in 2019 that would have been a massive considering the substantial user base they have over MS today.

I do wonder if the delay came from Ray Tracing requiring support. Anyway, these are all hypothetical situations, but a pretty cool story if it were true, and oddly doesn't 'break' anything if it were true. the selling of a gen 1 variant of Navi. But MS having access to the 2020 variant, Sony co-developing a hybrid one with AMD for an earlier launch with more straightforward BC.
hmm
 
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iroboto said:
shrug. I suppose they'd call it a RX6700 or whatever the next naming convention might be.
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Your totally missing what I'm saying.
I'm saying it's possible that it isn't just another model.
There has been an ongoing assumption by many that PS5 is Navi 20 due to Navi 10 not having RT etc.

I'm saying PS5 could be Navi 10 with RT back ported.
The hybrid GCN could help with BC also.
Navi 10/lite = Vega with some next gen features and customisations making it the hybrid.
Navi 10 could also fit the PS5 performance expectations of around 2070+?

What is being called Navi 20 could be what was called next gen on the road map, not GCN based at all, not simply a bigger chip, or new model.

That would mean that next gen was still on track and not GCN based, which this is also suggesting. Not being GCN based would constitute being next gen in my eyes.

This would be bigger interest to PC than to PS5.

Normal disclaimer:
That's if this article has any merit, and my fitting what we know, could be possible, with what is said....
 
Mskx said:
SweClockers is a long running site and they used to be really well respected and trusted back in the day but i haven't really kept up with them and don't know what their current reputation is like so i can't vouch for them.
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They should be fine regarding that, but if you're not swedish I would like to disagree with your interpretation (no, not swedish either, but they forced us to learn swedish too here in Finland (not that I really learned it ever)).
The way I read it they're saying "Navis are based on GCN with added "RDNA-bits" and "full blown RDNA comes later as Navi 20 next year". Which could be interpreted as "RDNA is GCN based architecture" with some modifications now and more coming later to the point you could argue it's no longer GCN but pure RDNA (with the Navi 20)
More importantly however, I'm pretty sure it's their own speculation, not leaks or such
 
Kaotik said:
The way I read it they're saying "Navis are based on GCN with added "RDNA-bits" and "full blown RDNA comes later as Navi 20 next year". Which could be interpreted as "RDNA is GCN based architecture" with some modifications now and more coming later to the point you could argue it's no longer GCN but pure RDNA (with the Navi 20)
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For what it's worth this was my take of it, based on what has been highlighted in here.

If this is the case I wonder if AMD will mention navi 20/next gen at all at E3, or prefer to keep quiet about it.
 
Jay said:
For what it's worth this was my take of it, based on what has been highlighted in here.

If this is the case I wonder if AMD will mention navi 20/next gen at all at E3, or prefer to keep quiet about it.
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Probably keep quiet, but one should also remember that even the existence of Navi 20 is purely based on speculation and rumors, which originally talked just about it being bigger Navi.
 
Kaotik said:
The way I read it they're saying "Navis are based on GCN with added "RDNA-bits" and "full blown RDNA comes later as Navi 20 next year". Which could be interpreted as "RDNA is GCN based architecture" with some modifications now and more coming later to the point you could argue it's no longer GCN but pure RDNA (with the Navi 20)
Click to expand...

The headline translates to
"AMD Radeon RX 5000 is a hybrid with elements of GCN - no "pure" RDNA until 2020"

The article mentions that
"Now it becomes clear that AMDs talk about a completely new architecture is a truth with modification, at least for the first generation of RDNA"

and also that

"The first generation is therefore a way of preparing the market for a future iteration of RDNA that is describes as a "pure" RDNA variant".

They say "Pure", not "less hybrid".

Later in the article they talk about how this clashes with what AMD said about RDNA being a from-the-ground up architecture built from scratch but also that it's normal to keep parts of your old architecture and that it's hard to determine what is new architecture and that they might have made fundamental enough changes to GCN to justify calling it something different, all stuff that has already been talked about on this forum which is why i didn't include it in my summary.

Kaotik said:
More importantly however, I'm pretty sure it's their own speculation, not leaks or such
Click to expand...

They say "Enligt uppgift till SweClockers" which means this is based on information they were given, not speculation.
 
I'm not understanding the nuisances between what your both saying as it amounts to the same to me.
But that could be my bias clouding things.

This year navi 10/lite = hybrid GCN and RDNA
Next year navi 20/next gen = RDNA based

My spin is PS5 = navi 10 with RDNA's RTRT back ported to it.
 
Jay said:
I'm not understanding the nuisances between what your both saying as it amounts to the same to me.
But that could be my bias clouding things.

This year navi 10/lite = hybrid GCN and RDNA
Next year navi 20/next gen = RDNA based

My spin is PS5 = navi 10 with RDNA's RTRT back ported to it.
Click to expand...

I think one of the main points is that it can be hard to ascertain what constitutes a completely new architecture and what doesn’t, as there can be several element in the new arch that are ported over from the old one.
 
i think it's quite simple, as PS4PRO had a mix of polaris and Vega, PS5 has a mix of Navi 10 and Navi 20, the only thing that matters here is the balance between it.
Looking further i think MS could really have gone full Navi 20 or at least more towards it, since it's API is less "into the metal" than Sony's, afterall, the "master plan of MS" was from the beggining to create a tiered console strategy and full BC between all generations with easy upscalability with better hardware.
 
Jay said:
Your totally missing what I'm saying.
I'm saying it's possible that it isn't just another model.
There has been an ongoing assumption by many that PS5 is Navi 20 due to Navi 10 not having RT etc.

I'm saying PS5 could be Navi 10 with RT back ported.
The hybrid GCN could help with BC also.
Navi 10/lite = Vega with some next gen features and customisations making it the hybrid.
Navi 10 could also fit the PS5 performance expectations of around 2070+?

What is being called Navi 20 could be what was called next gen on the road map, not GCN based at all, not simply a bigger chip, or new model.

That would mean that next gen was still on track and not GCN based, which this is also suggesting. Not being GCN based would constitute being next gen in my eyes.

This would be bigger interest to PC than to PS5.

Normal disclaimer:
That's if this article has any merit, and my fitting what we know, could be possible, with what is said....
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Right i'm following along with the other posts.
This is a decent assumption that PS5 committed to this path provided that they didn't also have a Navi 20 plan in works; PS5 to aim for a 2019 launch or an early 2020 launch. They are probably ready to launch earlier than if MS is waiting for the 'pure' (whatever that means) variant of Navi in 2020.

I think with MS having a late start with X1X, they've always been planning for a 2020 launch, so I guess there's no surprises there. This could be how they want to play this out. MS will be launching several months behind possibly. Curious to see how this will play out, things certainly did get interesting.

I'm not sure if there are any performance differences, I think most people expect there to be. MS came late into mid-gen refresh using the same Polaris and the same node as a 4Pro a year later, likely waiting for yields to improve at higher clock rates to reach that $499 price point.
 
London-boy said:
I think one of the main points is that it can be hard to ascertain what constitutes a completely new architecture and what doesn’t, as there can be several element in the new arch that are ported over from the old one.
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Yea I kinda take that as a given, although I know that has been a topic of conversation.
I'm talking about what is being said by the article, as in it not being GCN based but fully RDNA next year. Whatever AMD constitutes as next gen in their old roadmap.
I.e. same as when they moved to GCN away from VLIW. May not have to be that drastic though?
VLIW lasted about 5 years
GCN could well be about 8 years
 
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